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Post by D.Ram on Apr 21, 2015 6:16:05 GMT
We learn several very interesting steps during Kata practice. However, during Kumite in class, the fight boils down to the standard 5-6 kicks, and a very small range of hand motions.
How do you, in your class, handle kata-bunkai applications? Any insights which I can take back to my practice will be much appreciated!
I'm yet to reach Bunkai-Jutsu's chapter called "Kata-based Sparring", and am eager to see what that has to offer :-)
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More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by malk103 on Apr 21, 2015 18:01:13 GMT
The main thing I've learnt Is that we train and learn hundreds of applications and most of them don't work in a "scrap". The trick is to try everything to find what works for you, a lot of kata bunkai is aimed at close range so after the sparring stage. One way to look at this is to practice the moves in line, then as part of the kata and then with a compliant partner, lastly as a scrap. If it works train it, if it doesn't change it. So long as you are looking at lots of potential applications of kata and not just long range ones
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 21, 2015 19:02:26 GMT
And that's where the whole "bunkai" thing can break down. Learning a hundred bunkai is no more use to you in reality than learning 27 (or more) kata. It is a fine and entertaining way of spending your time but of limited use in the real world as if you have to think of which bunkai is appropriate to your situation it's already too late to use it. We (my current group) tend to pick a kata to work on for a while as it's a good excuse to tie the classical to the practical, however when you've done it for a while you'll find that all the kata (and hence bunkai) boil down to a handful of principles the work for you once you understand them in pretty much any situation. So my advice would be at this stage would be to enjoy the part of the bunkai journey you are on at present (it's where we all start  ) but don't get caught up in the "bunkai catalogue" trap as this is no different to the "classical combinatio/kata" trap. Understanding is what you are after in the long run, and this only really comes with practice (I hate saying that but it turns out it's true ) One other thing that often gets missed. as bunkai people are generally only interested in the "scrap" as Mal puts it. Think about how you transition between long and short range and close that distance down, that's a skill in itself. |
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Post by D.Ram on Apr 22, 2015 4:38:26 GMT
Thanks, Mal, for putting it so clearly - our sparring is at "sparring range", and an overwhelming percentage of Kata-moves seem to be targetting the "Close range" which comes later on!
Thanks, Bob, for pointing out that the Bunkai trap is very similar to the kata trap :-)
I'm just getting into the area of Bunkai now, with little steps - so I'm sure it will be years before I enter the trap-range! :-)
Oss.
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More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by malk103 on Apr 22, 2015 9:59:52 GMT
The best video I've watched lately was comparing classical bunkai and something a bit more real. They started with a stepping punch, the other blocked it and did two other moves whilst the attacker stood still, they then closed the range and the defender took a punch as it was too quick to block, they then exchanged blows until the defender went to ground. It's great to drill everything but just realise where it fits in with your training and reality, not everyone trains to be able to fight but keep training and your chances will gradually improve. The worst part of this is when an instructor sells long range defence as being able to defend yourself in the "street". One of my Sensei worked in prisons and dismisses most of the complex locks and sticks to easy basic stuff, a lot of what he teaches really has to be done with care for you training partner.  |
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 23, 2015 5:29:42 GMT
Its about context. Sparring distance is ideal for blocks and if most of your training is focused on 'dueling' then it fits that context. Kata bunkai is often poor because the distance is wrong. Try to block a punch from close range. There is not enough reaction time. Also if your bunkai is of the type that tries to fit the attack to the kata you end up with hundreds of different techniques/responses which no one is capable of remembering. Bunkai should show core principles in each kata and have responses for a variety of distances but none from the distance of a consensual sparring match which is unrealistic sport ( but great fun ! )
So decide what you are training for. If you want to train for both pragmatic self protection and sport be sure you understsnd the difference.
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Post by D.Ram on Apr 24, 2015 6:26:52 GMT
Hello Jim,
I believe you are helping me describe my question :-)
Suppose I want to train for "pragmatic self protection" - I guess we're saying that most of the "normal kumite" is of limited use in this area. What, then, is the _Correct_ kumite training for such self protection? Also, I'm assuming based on much that I've read, that such _correct_ kumite will have a lot of kata content, since that's what kata are meant for.
Oss.
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More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by th0mas on Apr 24, 2015 9:29:21 GMT
Not to echo what everyone has said, but just a suggestion...
Limit the range or distance for dojo sparring by creating logical barriers (lay down belts Etc) so that the arena forces the sparing partners into close range. Then the applications you learn through kata practice become relevant. Make sure you have mats though!
Be careful though because it can get messy.. One of the "advantages" of long range sparring is the safety element which is inherent with the higher degree of control possible at longer range. At close range blocking does not work in the traditional manner and it is all about body mechanics and applying force to delicate joints and other parts of the body...
... It certainly won't look clean!
Cheers
Tom
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 25, 2015 7:41:44 GMT
Yeah what Tom said ! Invest in some good headguards, gloves and body armour and encourage an anything goes mentality. Set up two or three on one scenarios and keep some participants in the dark as to the intention of others. Turn out the lights, provide obstacles and take people out of their comfort zones. Put some agreed safety measures in place. For instance a finger or thumb tap to the forehead is a eye gouge and grabbing the obi or waistband is a groin grab or strike.
Traditional kumite is great for karate but unrealistic otherwise, however it encourages contact, improves balance and body evasion and is a great confidence builder. It teaches you cope with adrenalin and gives an understanding of ma-ai. kata based or self protection based kumite needs to be rough, dirty and cover haov . It is just as much fun as trad kumite and my students luv it!
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Post by D.Ram on Apr 28, 2015 8:58:33 GMT
This discussion has been most useful for me! Now to convince my training partner, and invest some money :-)
Oss!
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More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by daveb on Apr 29, 2015 12:03:45 GMT
It's not just about changing the range though. There is a difference between fighting for a contest and fighting for self defense. Abernethy's podcast on kata based sparring explains it well.
Another important factor and key difference between skilled sparring and street defense is commitment. An angry thug swings to take your head off; a skilled fighter jabs to test your guard and even when committed, will not give so much weight that he loses balance.
Much of what we practice as self defense is geared towards fully committed blows. It's why karateka always use oizuki in one step: it is representative of a commitment of body weight.
However, I believe fighting is fighting in that our kata are concerned with all aspects. Sport fighting is simply a duel with a skilled opponent. Should karateka simply pray they never upset anyone who knows how to fight? Of course not! The untrained assailant is the most basic level of threat and the skilled fighter is nowhere near the highest level.
Knowing how to change an application from one that counters committed blows into one that works against jabs; knowing how to take a defensive application and turn it into an attack (covering distance as mentioned), will all help you understand how to fight successfully with your kata.
The most important statement in this thread was that the application stage is a step on the road to understanding the principles behind the kata sequences. That these principles are rules which you can interpret into any situation. Ultimately it is these principles which will allow you to fight effectively using the kata.
That doesn't mean skip the endless drilling of set-piece applications. The doing of this stage builds skills and awareness of how your body moves, but know that it is not the destination.
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Post by ruestir on May 14, 2015 12:21:15 GMT
I was recently infected...er trained with Iain Abernethy and his method of kata based sparring. If you're looking for a way to transition from the teaching/learning of kata applications to putting them into practice in a more "dirty" type confrontation, Iain's methods are definitely worth looking at.
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) but don't get caught up in the "bunkai catalogue" trap as this is no different to the "classical combinatio/kata" trap. Understanding is what you are after in the long run, and this only really comes with practice (I hate saying that but it turns out it's true 
