Martial Arts and real world violence

[Bob Davis]

I am posting this (as much as anything else) to try and promote a bit of discussion.

These are a couple of quotes from a long private conversation I was having recently on the difference between what most martial arts cover and the realities of actual violent confrontation so I apologise (given the international nature of the membership) if some of the cultural references are a bit sensitive where you are, this is a UK based conversation. We were discussing the fact that the bulk of (UK) students live in a relatively safe environment so they seldom have to put their training to the test, they assume it will work for them because they are doing a "martial art" but given the likelyhood of them ever actually having to face a violent encounter what they are really training for (within a self defence framework) it to alleviate the WORRY of being able to defend themselves rather than the actuality and for most that is enough (and, if we can avoid it, why would we want to expose ourselves to the raw reality of violence).

So the section I'm opening up for discussion went something like this

real violence is not a nice world but if you are doing violence, learn about it!

response was

But most martial artists are "doing violence" in much the same way as kids are "doing genocide" when playing Cowboys and Indians. It's just playing a game that's hung on a fantasy.

Probably not a popular view but what do we think?

[garage]

I know I will go ask some university undergraduate from Japan, who only play with each other, with loads of rules, about real world violence. Then wonder why it is fantasy.

I can smell the washing powder on your freshly pressed Gi as I read your post. ( general stereotype?)

Most people are really nasty and karate just gets in the way of their natural violence, find your inner shit and real violence is no problem.

Inflicting life changing injury is is no problem if you let yourself be an animal.

Never found away to say anything on a karate blog with out someone get upset but I trying to answer your question and start a discussion?

[Bob Davis]

I think you'd be pretty hard pushed to smell washing powder on my Gi (although it has had a few run outs recently) Been a long time since I followed that particular path for anything other than entertainment.

You'd be hard pushed to cause upset but thanks at least for getting involved, it's a start.

[D.Ram]

Well, I go to class, do my kata, practice my kihon. Also do some basic partnerwork. As a result, I find that when I am attacked in a predetermined manner in the dojo, my body at least responds in a suitable manner. Is this not already better than being untrained?

I agree that a lot of real world fighting is drastically different from what we do at our dojo; however, given our own constraints of time, I find it a reasonable compromise to simply go and drill the basics and improve the body to a level where it can do _something_ if required.
______________
More sweat in training, less blood in battle

[Bob Davis]

Hi Deepak,

My opinion is divided on this, it very much depends on how you train.

Because of your training you will be fitter, stronger and have better reactions (as they would be with badminton for instance but nobody emphasises the self defence benefits of that ), but you make no mention of bag work or pad work, years of punching and kicking air will just make you good at punching and kicking air, that's all. You make no mention of non-compliant drills, or close in work, or fighting on the ground or being blind sided or grabbed from behind or attacked by more than one person, or being attacked with a weapon, or someone by who just isn't following your (or any) rules, swearing, shouting, spitting, gouging, biting etc...

Now training to fight on the street is (very) far from the only reason people train in a traditional art (if they even consider it at all) so I'm not having a go at that in any way. Karate offers a massive amount to your life and is a fascinating and challenging study but it is also massively divorced from the world of real violence. No one is going to attack you with oi-tsuki from 8 feet away outside of the dojo and anyone can "respond in a suitable manner" if given that much notice (the white belts can do it from day one ). There are those who can make it work (and I have seen it) but these guys are natural "fighters" and would be able to make virtually anything work if it came to it, for the other 99.9% of us, not so much.

As Bert says, we all have the capacity for violence (although in some it is buried deep) and training can actually get in the way because it instills a false impression of what a violent confrontation actually is and sets an expectation, finding that out after a fight has started is way too late. Finding you "inner shit" is an important concept and there are mental training drills that can help you learn how to turn it on and off with practice (although I've only ever seen them done in one dojo), they are not pleasant and are not fun.

So I suppose the upshot of my (current) opinion is that training can be of help IF you train correctly with that aim in mind BUT that most assume that just by training at all it'll happen naturally when you need it to (which is where the fantasy starts to creep in )

[th0mas]

Hi Bob
I think the response you quoted is probably quite accurate for a large number of dojo's. I see heaps of evidence that it is also true for other MA, including the ones that portray themselves as "street leathal" and those at the other end of the fantasy scale, such as Ninjitsu.
That being said there is nothing wrong in doing something just for the joy of the thing. There is lots of stuff we do in shotokan that I enjoy doing and being good at, that really have limited pragmatic value. A good example of this maintaining good "shotokan" form when practicing basic Kihon, arguably an activity that does not need over polishing once you have achieved a level of competency where additional refinement is just an exercise in the law of diminishing returns.
However I am very aware this and it is clearly compartmentalised in my head. On other forums I bang on about context and setting clear training goals, as I think that being able to differentiate the different aspects of a training session gives me the opportunity to cater for all my training goals, some of which are mutually exclusive.. Especially when it comes to kata application and performance.
Sadly my protestations often receive negative feedback, with accusations of being too objective / goal focussed, or using symantics as an excuse for karate not being as effective as MMA, Krav Maga, BJJ, gypsy bareknuckle Llapghogg, <insert latest MA craze here> etc
I think the problem is partly because of a lack of understanding of the delta between imagined violence propagated to justify "traditional" training regimes vs what I think actually happens (based on my limited experience) on a Friday night outside the Dog & Duck.

[garage]

Karate training is a lot harder than Violence. The attention to detail it has to be just right, then you think a lot of rules, violence is so much easier if you survived that is it, you can say what you like you triumphed overcame adversity. You write the history.

The obsession with detail means that you forget to focus on the outcome and get overcome with fear. After a lot of makawara training hitting someone is a lot softer, perhaps I didn't use enough padding.

Then perhaps what I do isn't karate it looks like it, that's how I learnt what ever it is. Size does matter and I cannot guarantee the outcome as I basically have to trick the people that are bigger than me, I have yet to meet someone who either does karate better than me or knows someone that does. I am the worst.

Then I do not doubt myself and need to tell someone to make myself feel better. I am happy to go to the Dog and Duck on a Friday, which is why I started in the first place. I won back the night. Nonetheless age will get me.

[Jakub Cižek]

Violence has many faces, even violence we do against ourselves. I would define violence as anything that others do to us, or we do to ourselves that forces us to a state that we don't want to be. Could be non-physical.

Martial arts are hard to explain, because they are both meditation and self-awareness, and violence. I believe that martial arts only makes sense when practiced under a life risk state of mind, the feeling that your life depends on every move. It strenghens our minds and bodies. And how do we achieve that? By practicing with the apropriate attitude, distance, and energy. Training in the apropriate manner increases your sense of danger (I wouldn't say courage), which you keep you away from danger, and also to inflict that feeling (of danger) to your opponent (or partner, during training).

I think that is not doing violence, but when done apropiately, is practicing violence: both inflicting and defending from it.

[mayur1234]

Women must not depend upon the protection of man , but must be taught to protect herself. Every women must know martial arts so that she don’t have to live with fear anymore. Martial arts

[johnnewman]

I think to sum up there only two things to keep under consideration
1. Self-Defence at the right moment
2. Controlling the outcome of your own self while someone provokes you. It is by far the most important objective of this game. Never initiate anything and do not back off when you're thrown into a situation where you have to fight back.