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Post by genkaimade on Feb 4, 2011 22:00:39 GMT
Heya all, what do you think of the following?
Alex
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 6, 2011 1:40:14 GMT
Mixed feelings on this one! First impression `not bad`, then as I`m watching I think his backside is sticking out to much, he isn`t showing that much, vibration or rotation, his kiba dachi is heading towards shiko dachi. Some of the bunkai is good enough, but I would be tighter in on the arm bar & opening my hands to lifte the wrist as I put downward pressure on the elbow. Also I think of finishing, with holding him close on the arm bar, I most likely would have shown my rear leg kneeing him in the head, or taking him down to the ground. Like I said first look said it was o.k. then I couldn`t help taking it apart. Don`t know if I would look better, but hey it`s not me in the video... ;D osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 8, 2011 2:20:32 GMT
Mixed feelings on this one! First impression `not bad`, then as I`m watching I think his backside is sticking out to much, he isn`t showing that much, vibration or rotation, his kiba dachi is heading towards shiko dachi. Some of the bunkai is good enough, but I would be tighter in on the arm bar & opening my hands to lifte the wrist as I put downward pressure on the elbow. Also I think of finishing, with holding him close on the arm bar, I most likely would have shown my rear leg kneeing him in the head, or taking him down to the ground. Like I said first look said it was o.k. then I couldn`t help taking it apart. Don`t know if I would look better, but hey it`s not me in the video... ;D osu Paul B and this is IMHO a perfect example of how we CAN ALL use this modern tinternet thing to debate, hear different views and perspectives from people whom clearly know what they talk of and ALL LEARN! my take on it = a clearly very 'thinking karateka' with I suspect a competition and Dojo based background, searching for reality that he has not endured and getting the theatrical mixed up with the reality - BUT and i say this very seriously - coming up with lots for us all to think of and i thank him for that
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Post by kensei on Feb 8, 2011 14:13:27 GMT
I like Jion, but this guy has a few weak points that need addressing, his arms are to lose...for dramatic effect. Not much in the way of focus that I can see...but that is actually a good thing, most "Drama-Kata's" Make the "performer" look as though they are passing a stone! The Applications are fine, they are not really addressed well in spots but like steve indicates might be for the mixing of real life appliation and Dojo based Embu training.....the two are often at odds. The best thing I can say about this is he has some different ideas and is not a cookie cutt out of the standard applications. I normally teach the "Standard" applications first and then move to some more......well life based kind of application (IE I had to use them at one point or another in real life or in the club and they HAD To work). Not a great Kata, but lets face it...Jion is so basic and straight forwards its very hard to give a performance that is awe inspiring. Just saying it aint bad....but it aint the best.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 8, 2011 23:37:29 GMT
James - genuinely asking - 'the standard applications'? is that your orgs standards apps, or yours?
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Post by kensei on Feb 9, 2011 19:40:26 GMT
To be frank....those are two different things. JKA standard applications and my clubs are the same...but I tend to add a bit of Spice to them. My instructor lets me teach Bunkai based on my Karate, Judo, Aikido and other experience so I mix them together and work on the movements. HOWEVER, if they can not be done in a real life situation...they get tossed! I see alot of applications that would only work in the fair land of narnia!
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 9, 2011 23:41:31 GMT
Oh dear yer numpty - i have worked out that you have an enguiring mind and woulda moved on via your knowledge , experience, etc
was merely asking do you or your group have a standard - must be taught - app?
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Post by kensei on Feb 10, 2011 14:00:08 GMT
Oh dear yer numpty - i have worked out that you have an enguiring mind and woulda moved on via your knowledge , experience, etc was merely asking do you or your group have a standard - must be taught - app? Oh, Not enough coffee in the brain some days...or maybe something is lost in the translation! We do and we dont. When the Kata is taught we do teach what has been passed down, but I always throw in something extra. That and it is not really a written or understood standard per see. I would say that we follow what the JKA has stated the moves are but often it is not something we follow to a "T". We dont have anything written down so most of the time I kind of go over the Kata before class and then do what feels right at that point. It is more of a natural flow feel in my classes, no "text book Applications" more exploration and trial! ;D
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 10, 2011 23:49:45 GMT
thanks for that clearer explanation.
However, you do state that 'we follow what the JKA has stated the moves are' - can you very kindly point me to where they did this as i am not aware of it - maybe just JKA over there?
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Post by kensei on Feb 11, 2011 15:02:39 GMT
thanks for that clearer explanation. However, you do state that 'we follow what the JKA has stated the moves are' - can you very kindly point me to where they did this as i am not aware of it - maybe just JKA over there? By that I mean the JKA seminars we attend. They tend to have the same explanations for Bunaki when Imura, Tanaka, Saeki, Yaguchi and Okizaki (Last two many years ago mind you, and are not JKA but use all the JKA sylabus). I have yet to read a book or paper with them outlining the Bunkai, but it is taught the same ever year I go to camp and when ever we have instructors teach the Katas.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 11, 2011 15:24:53 GMT
argh - got it - thanks for explaining
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 13, 2011 20:06:25 GMT
My biggest problem with this and all Kata bunkai like it is the use of set attacks and responses and the fact that they use karate techniques to attack from so far away that he might as well have sent a postcard announcing the attack! Do we really still believe that your opponent has to attack lets say Oi-tsuki with his left hand only for this kata or that kata to work. I dont buy it.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 13, 2011 21:24:53 GMT
Excellent point Jim! I like to tech bunkai more from a self defense perspective than say being punched & kicked at in a tournament. To be it is more realistic to defend against grabs, headlocks, chokes, close quarter attacks etc..Yes of course we need to be able to defend from combinations of pinching & kicking, but we also need to defend against close range attacks. Also, what about defense against weapons?? Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 13, 2011 23:46:38 GMT
tis my belief that 'Karate' was designed to fight 'non karateka' not 'step back Gedan barrai' opponents BUT the use of basic formats can lead you to SD skills IMHO!
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Post by kensei on Feb 14, 2011 19:36:38 GMT
I agree with steve and Pual. when I teach I tend to adjust the bunkai to more "non traditional attacks" and also the traditional attacks. I think that at first you do the mainstream attack defense stuff that we teach non-Dan level and then you throw in rear grabs, wrist grabs, and non- classical attacks. You have to make the Kata modern or it is simply a pretty dance!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 14, 2011 22:39:31 GMT
take a specific attack out of the equation for a moment, concentrate on the response or particular technique outlined in the kata. it then becomes adaptable to many scenarios weapons included. For instance lets take opening moves of heian nidan. lets assume just an aggressive attitude from our uke and pose him in a loose boxers crouch. this stops us from concentrating on an attack and allows us to follow implied instructions from the kata such as 3 ways to attack the jaw, thereby hopefully knocking out your opponent. So FACING your opponent initially his guard is parried and lifted facilitating an uppercut as you turn side-on to your opponent, the striking arm pulls back dragging him onto the second strike then disengage for tetsui. We see then that regardless of his intent or if he carries a weapon our techniques need no modification and targets remain the same. Or maybe not, I am no expert!
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 14, 2011 23:42:51 GMT
take a specific attack out of the equation for a moment, concentrate on the response or particular technique outlined in the kata. it then becomes adaptable to many scenarios weapons included. For instance lets take opening moves of heian nidan. lets assume just an aggressive attitude from our uke and pose him in a loose boxers crouch. this stops us from concentrating on an attack and allows us to follow implied instructions from the kata such as 3 ways to attack the jaw, thereby hopefully knocking out your opponent. So FACING your opponent initially his guard is parried and lifted facilitating an uppercut as you turn side-on to your opponent, the striking arm pulls back dragging him onto the second strike then disengage for tetsui. We see then that regardless of his intent or if he carries a weapon our techniques need no modification and targets remain the same. Or maybe not, I am no expert! but you are a thinking karateka - many aren't the 3 ways to attack the jaw = ? pls explain nice stuff James = food for thought = the development of karate IMHO
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 15, 2011 5:42:50 GMT
It is a good place to start, thinking about applications/implications as defenses against punching &/or kicking, also using punching & kicking as the defense/attack. However, I find that the more I learn about, trapping, joint locks & take downs, I like to look at the kata & figure ok, this got me here, now look at what I can do with this. For example at about 5:20 in the video, we are shown gedan kosu uke as jamming the kick deflecting the opponent, close in behind him & choke him out. I have been working my students on using a leg bar/lock, much the same as an arm bar. When you jam a right leg kick with a right arm on top kosu, your bottom arm can slip down a bit to twist the lower leg outside while the upper arm twists the knee inside, much the same as moving the elbow one way & the wrist the other. When your opponent twists, shift in pushing his leg to his back, as you are still keeping his knee bent, he usually goes down, you still have his leg, you should be able to slide in & lock his leg as you kick his head which now is at ground level, or slide in & get his knee on your leg & drive his leg down snapping his knee. At about 6:20 he is showing jodan kosu uke & defending against punches as he his punching. We have been working on a trapping drill on this one that has been working quite well. Get in close tie him up & if he has a weapon keep control of the weapon. Osu Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 22, 2011 10:07:38 GMT
the 3 ways to attack the jaw = ? pls explain nice stuff James = food for thought = the development of karate IMHO If we assume what I previously stated Steve then the jaw can be attacked from 3 angles with this particular sequence, so first lifting the attackers lead hand facilitates an upper-cut under the jaw, the second pulls the attacker onto a close punch to the side and the final tetsui flush on the point of the jaw and the techniques are "target appropriate" ( tetsui for instance to point of jaw where most likely to damage hand if knuckles used)
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 22, 2011 13:10:07 GMT
ahhh! Got yer now - you meant in this sequence and i didn't realise that DOH!
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