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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 5, 2011 10:11:42 GMT
I have just been looking at an old vid of Funakoshi performing tekki-shodan and it occurs to me that he would not make it to the finals of any modern competition with that performance. Is that a good thing? do you believe that karate has evolved and modern methods are better? or have we lost something that should have been retained and the old masters way of doing things are better?
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Post by kensei on Mar 5, 2011 14:04:28 GMT
I think alot of the alterations that were made were aesthetic in nature and would not have been seen as good by the old masters, but I also think alot of them were major improvements for Kata.
And I dont think Funakoshi would have entered a tournament...he was after all dead set against them!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 5, 2011 16:40:52 GMT
to expand on that, are modern training methods best? where do we draw the line between traditional and contemporary. Is the evolution of a martial art a good thing, necessary for its survival or a dilution of the original?
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Post by kensei on Mar 5, 2011 20:16:58 GMT
Traditional training with a contemporary approach is much better than Sport training with no focus other than on winning trophies!
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 5, 2011 23:20:12 GMT
to expand on that, are modern training methods best? where do we draw the line between traditional and contemporary. Is the evolution of a martial art a good thing, necessary for its survival or a dilution of the original? it should naturally follow that the positive evolution of anything is beneficial Jim BUT the operative word here has to be 'positive'. there have been some changes that I abhor but some that i value and believe are extremely useful. it would take a book to write it all down though.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 6, 2011 13:46:12 GMT
Surely mastery of karate is part of the process of making it evolve for example: if a senior karateka looks closely at a given technique and says 'we can improve the way in which we practise that technique, we can help students better understand how the technique is formed and applied, how to develop the muscle usage and control, how to gain the required flexibilty etc' and he is able to do so because he has mastered the technique but in retrospect realises that their are quicker and safer training methodologies than those he was given to use, is this not evolution via mastery? and if on Japanese forums they would sigh and say 'NO the old way is the way we do it and we are gonna stick with that because it's tradition' then i would say 'you sad and ill informed fools. Karate only came to japan in the earlyish 1900's and it evolved immensely when it did in and for a huge variety of reasons. It has evolved and changed even more since then and will continue to do so. However, if you want to stand still instead of going with the flow = then you will stagnate and evaporate and will have no one to blame but yourselves!' the truth is though that the japanese are not remaining stagnant, not at the JKA at least. one has to only look at, for example, the DVD's produced by Naka Sensei where he states and shows very clearly that 'It is ok and correct, when performing certain punch attacks, to have the heel of the rear leg, completely raised from the floor! OMG EVOLUTION isn't necessarily REVOLUTION!.
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Post by guyakuzuki on Mar 6, 2011 18:36:30 GMT
Surely mastery of karate is part of the process of making it evolve for example: if a senior karateka looks closely at a given technique and says 'we can improve the way in which we practise that technique, we can help students better understand how the technique is formed and applied, how to develop the muscle usage and control, how to gain the required flexibilty etc' and he is able to do so because he has mastered the technique but in retrospect realises that their are quicker and safer training methodologies than those he was given to use, is this not evolution via mastery? and if on Japanese forums they would sigh and say 'NO the old way is the way we do it and we are gonna stick with that because it's tradition' then i would say 'you sad and ill informed fools. Karate only came to japan in the earlyish 1900's and it evolved immensely when it did in and for a huge variety of reasons. It has evolved and changed even more since then and will continue to do so. However, if you want to stand still instead of going with the flow = then you will stagnate and evaporate and will have no one to blame but yourselves!' the truth is though that the japanese are not remaining stagnant, not at the JKA at least. one has to only look at, for example, the DVD's produced by Naka Sensei where he states and shows very clearly that 'It is ok and correct, when performing certain punch attacks, to have the heel of the rear leg, completely raised from the floor! OMG EVOLUTION isn't necessarily REVOLUTION!. take Nakayama's dynamic karate book p.110 picture bottom left and you'll see him raising his heel from the floor when performing gyaku tsuki!
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 7, 2011 0:09:48 GMT
I would suggest Guy that tis Not the same thing - you'll see photos of most Japanese raising there heel and often it is a photographic timing thing - but how many of you ought there have ever heard a japanese Senior Instructor teach that it is not only OK to lift your heal but then go on and bring out internationally available training DVD's to show training drills where you must when making both oitsuki and Gyaku Tsuki, LIFT YOUR HEEL? None until now in my experience. But I have trained with many western Seniors who where teaching this decades ago as an alternative approach - Steve Cattle, Dave Hazard, Frank Cope to name but a few - Maybe the Japanese are catching up LOL!
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Post by kensei on Mar 7, 2011 14:32:21 GMT
Here is the way I see it. their is perfect Kihon Waza, then their is Kumite Waza and Kata Waza...which is close to Kihon waza. In Kihon Waza you stress perfection of form and all the darn little nasty points like "Heel down" Butt in" ext and so on. When doing drills or working on form you are striving to have perfect form. When I warm up with Kihon waza I try to remember front knee, back heel, hip possition ext and so on. Kata Waza is timing related, you try and do perfect technique but you often find that your timing is what you are working on the most. Focus is different. Its Kihon Waza applied as if you were fighting. The form must be perfect but you must also have speed ext and so on. You worry about the details even at top speed. Now after all that training you go to Kumite waza. Kumite waza is life or death and the details dont seem to mean as much. Speed, power, explosiveness and other Key elements are focused on to ensure that you live through the experience! ;D Heel up, heel down...dont matter much as long as you hit and dont get hit. But, must like sprinters training, all the lead up and focus on form and techniques do play a big part in Kumite, but the rules are meant to be adapted when actually applying the technqiues of Karate. So, start off focusing on perfection, work into using perfection in a real fight then blast through all that and push into application of the art. SHU RI HA!!!!!!
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