|
Post by Ernst on Apr 23, 2011 19:02:14 GMT
Just wondering what you guys think and do, from oizuki to oizuki in i.e Heian Shodans three in a row, when the zenkutsu is already "stretched". Do you pull your back leg to the middle and then push into the next technique, or do you loosening the stance up and push into the floor with the back leg? Im having a hard time to get it flowing effortless into the next one Don't know if this makes any sense to you, but advices would be highly appreciated
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Apr 23, 2011 23:16:02 GMT
Ernst, I suspect you were taught the old curved/crescent flight path for the 'free leg' (as many in Europe were). It is Totally wrong for a zillion reasons. Try this for correct stepping for shomen ZK. Hanmi = slightly different:
You'll need two different coloured rolls of tape (lets say 1 x Black and 1 x red)
stand shoulder width apart and have someone tape the floor with two parallel lines running away from your feet and centred from the middle of your ankles - 4 x the length of your normal ZK step (Black).
Now have your colleague drop a plumb line from the centre of each knee cap to the floor - Mark the spots and run two inner parallel lines - also twice length of your normal ZK. we'll call the lines:
LF: LEFT FOOT TRANSIT LINE LK: LEFT KNEE TRANSIT LINE RK: RIGHT KNEE TRANSIT LINE RF: RIGHT FOOT TRANSIT LINE
should look like this:-
LF:________________________________________ LK:_____________________________________________
RK:_____________________________________________ RF:________________________________________
Now: Keeping your feet on end of black parallel lines at LF and RF respectively _ bend your knees, keeping good posture, back straight, head up and do not let your hips tilt making your bum stick out to rear, ankles fully flexed.
DO NOT allow your knees to push out or in - they must stay above the red lines. Lower yourself until you reach your normal ZK height (it is ok and easier to practice at a slightly higher leveland thus perform slightly higher stances until you have body memorised it all and then you can gradually lower to your normal stance height and length. Kinistheticly absorb what this structure feels like (we'll call it S1) because it is the mid point position when stepping Correctly from ZK to ZK* - NOT the old feet come together at mid point (totally wrong for many reasons!! muscle use, hip alignment, ankle usage leading to incorrect foot placement etc etc!) *the only difference to this structure (at mid point) when making a full step forward or back is the fact that the transiting (free leg) will have lifted the foot a fraction of the floor as it follows the black line as you step.
From now on your feet must not go anywhere except forward and back along the black lines and the knees must transit exactly above the red lines = NO DEVIATION!
From S1 thrust forward into left side ZK. (The sports science free leg theory is important now - TO ENSURE CORRECT MUSCLE AND JOINT USE, CORRECT BALANCE AND POSTURE AND CORRECT FLIGHTPATH OF FREE LEG). Concentrate upon a sense of pushing your right foot into the ground at base of RF (DO Not let it turn out) as you free your left foot it hovers a fraction above, and follows the LF black line - it mustn't deviate. the knee must have a flight path that stays the same distance above the ground and remains throughout above the LK red line
when you are fully in your stance -
the right foot should be on the RF black line AND NOT turned to the side.
The right knee should have traveled along the RKred line and remain above it when stance complete
the left foot should have traveled along, and be on, the LF black line and the right knee should have traveled above the LK red line and remain above it when stance complete NO DEVIATIONS - especially DO NOT push the knee out so it is above your foot = so wrong!!
at all times your belly button should have followed a line dead centre and your hip joints should have stayed in line with the belly button with neither advancing or dropping back.
In essence you have just completed the second half of a shomen forwardstep ZK to ZK
now from your stances be conscious of the muscle usage as you begin a complete step forward from your LF forward stance to an RF foot forward stance. A sense of driving through your left knee until you pass through S1 and then drive into the ground with your left foot as you pass centre. remember that at all times:
the left foot stays straight aligned along LF keep any twist out to absolute minimum (essential for correct human locomotion use of musculature and joints - we are not designed like frogs! you may have to work on ankle flexibility to help with this.
the Left knee transits exactly above LK line NO Deviations - again essential for correct human locomotion use of musculature and joints
the right knee transits exactly above RK line - again essential for correct human locomotion use of musculature and joints
the right foot transits a fraction above RF line - again essential for correct human locomotion use of musculature and joints
the belly button transits directly down centre (imagine a laser beam coming from your belly button = it would hit the same spot on the wall infront of you throughout whole process = this ensures hips remain in shomen and do not drift side to side or rise and fall.
Keep god posture throughout Head up, eyes exactly to the front, back straight etc. helps while learning to do whole process with hands on your hips
Now repeat process stepping forward on other side
and again
Now complete four steps in exact reverse and remember key points at all times.
It may take you a while to get out of old crescent step method BUT this IS the bio-mechanically correct way to step in ZK.
you travel exactly as described and do not deviate from the lines.
Phew!! Ernst that took longer to write out than i thought. so much easier when i can show you but heyho you asked for it LOL!
Good Luck!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Apr 24, 2011 5:29:52 GMT
here is a perfect example of many of the points I discuss above Ernst - Look closely at the photo of Kawasoe Sensei's shomen Zenkutsu Dachi (imagine that the Parallel shoulder width black 'foot transit lines' and the inner parallel red 'Knee transit lines' are painted on the floor beneath him). then note: both feet point to the front the knees are not in line with the feet but slightly inside the shoulder width parallel (as when stood in shoulder width Shizentai Dachi) the belly button is centre and in line with each hip joint creating a line that runs 90% from both RF and LF lines. eyes exactly to the front, body upright and hips shoulders and head all in straight upright alignment Hope it helpful - took me ages so yer owe me a pint HAHA! Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by Ernst on Apr 24, 2011 5:33:18 GMT
Thank you, I cannot start to say how happy I am that you took the time to reply! You are right, the crescent method have been with us for years, and it is kind of hard to unlearn. But , I will try hard to do it the way you so brilliantly explained it
|
|
|
Post by tomobrien on Apr 24, 2011 22:01:32 GMT
Ernst, I suspect you were taught the old curved/crescent flight path for the 'free leg' (as many in Europe were). It is Totally wrong for a zillion reasons. Please give me some of those 'zillion' reasons. Thanks, Tom
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Apr 25, 2011 14:56:24 GMT
Ernst, I suspect you were taught the old curved/crescent flight path for the 'free leg' (as many in Europe were). It is Totally wrong for a zillion reasons. Please give me some of those 'zillion' reasons. Thanks, Tom Will do Tom but Wife just lit Barbecue and screaming for help. Please be patient!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Apr 25, 2011 19:00:54 GMT
OK Tom I have a few minutes so start with this and I'll keep adding. Stand shoulder width apart and take ten steps forward = normal natural walking. Then 10 steps backward normal natural movement. really 'Feel' the moves kineasthetically and concentrate on the feel of how your musculature and joints etc are working!
when done let me know please!
|
|
|
Post by tomobrien on Apr 27, 2011 3:03:39 GMT
OK - stop stuffing your face with BBQ & let me know When I'm not fighting I'm not on my 'toes' - in other words I'm not moving on the balls of my feet. When I walk I walk heel to toe Whattayu eatin anyway? Thanks, Tom
|
|
|
Post by guyakuzuki on May 7, 2011 5:26:55 GMT
I think the way you describe it Steve is the way we did it in kyokushin.No half moon step forward just stepping in a straight line forward.I don't exactly remember the reason sensei had but I think it had something to do with lack of balance when bringing your feet together(but I'm no sure about this):here's an example:(first part of video) www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNzCUDgqXX8is this what you mean ?
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on May 10, 2011 4:36:35 GMT
Some similarities Guy -
The thing to 'get' is that Karate is unnatural in that it isn't a skill that is innate (like walking or the development of speech) for humans BUT it must be performed in a way that is NATURAL to humans in that it does not contain any movement that is contrary or damaging (even by cumulative effect) to human locomotion and body mechanics - but sadly it is often taught that way.
Shotokan has slowly developed along sports science lines for the past 60 yrs and this development (made by University professors such as Nakayama Sensei) has sadly not yet permeated out to foriegn students sufficiently. Also some foriegn organisations have distorted the structure and movements for visual effect and this has been copied by students.
Look again at the Photo of Kawasoe and compare it - for example to Frank Brennan's stances - both phenominal Karateka but one with very serious Joint injuries.
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Dec 13, 2011 18:21:23 GMT
Yes I know it's a late reply were behind a bit here in NZ Start at the 0.37 seconds mark, is the structure of the knees and feet similar to what you are talking bout Steve? I practice sanchin this way trying to make an imaginary X through the core with the alignment of arms and legs (watch Chinnen Sensei's stick).
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Dec 14, 2011 23:03:14 GMT
Unfortunately Andrew I can't get the sound to work on this clip so can't fully answ :)er the question you posed for me elsewhere - It does appear that this teacher really goes into detail for his students and THAT I like a lot. Sorry I can't answer your question yet though - any tips on getting the sound to work mate!
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Dec 15, 2011 2:44:40 GMT
Get sound to work by turning it on
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Dec 15, 2011 4:52:36 GMT
oh hello - tis a good job you are the otherside of the world yer cheeky sod! of course tis turned on! But heyho, if yer don't want me to try and answer the question you asked me..... Good Grief! Bloody Scots mad as snakes all of them - should know me Mum was one LOL!
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Dec 15, 2011 18:55:49 GMT
oh hello - tis a good job you are the otherside of the world yer cheeky sod! of course tis turned on! But heyho, if yer don't want me to try and answer the question you asked me..... Good Grief! Bloody Scots mad as snakes all of them - should know me Mum was one LOL! Works ok here but shite sound quality. It's Teruo Chinen who used to be Higaonna's no. #2 who in the words of John Jarvis ''was suspended for trying too hard to be no #1''. Obviously he is talking about alignment in sanchin kata but describes similar knee foot alignment to your example above. In sanchin stance with this alignment is very stable the 'X' described works to stablise the stance front to back as well as side to side. This is very beneficial in an up close and personal situation. As for the good old crescent stepping...........I get your point totally however am in two minds............. well not really. You need both. The method you explain is good for stepping and hitting, the crescent method is good when up close in sanchin when trying to tie up your opponents legs with yours. Take a look at Bob Orlando...
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Dec 28, 2011 14:44:52 GMT
Sorry ANdrew but have to disagree - you are confusing correct bio -mechanical stepping with a purposeful distortion of that procedure used to destabalise an opponent - totally seperate things.
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jan 2, 2012 0:04:06 GMT
Sorry ANdrew but have to disagree - you are confusing correct bio -mechanical stepping with a purposeful distortion of that procedure used to destabalise an opponent - totally seperate things. Yes I do get it Steve I just wandered off track a wee bit Here is a clip of Kagawa Sensei explains it quite well. I gave this concept a try out on my new (Santa brought me) bag and guess what guys? ?? I produced more power using the method Steve explains and what Kagawa is showing. I was trying really hard to make the crescent step be more powerful........So I'm convinced. P.S. I treated myself to a full copy of the Kagawa Best Karate DVD it is excellent basic stuff. I think Ged at Legend Productions has a few copies left. Link is at the top of the page.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 2, 2012 12:44:08 GMT
great post Andrew - Doesn't Kagawa make you want to shoot him - Awesomely fluid karate! And to everyone else Legend Productions material is Brilliant and also our very own Andrew Paxton (Superjock) has some great stuff for sale as well. Long Live people like Ged and Andrew who help us access good stuff. Try Andrew's the Karate 'HAKA' Dvd tis great!
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jan 2, 2012 16:43:16 GMT
great post Andrew - Doesn't Kagawa make you want to shoot him - Awesomely fluid karate! And to everyone else Legend Productions material is Brilliant and also our very own Andrew Paxton (Superjock) has some great stuff for sale as well. Long Live people like Ged and Andrew who help us access good stuff. Try Andrew's the Karate 'HAKA' Dvd tis great! Haka DVD I wouldn't be so presumptious Get enough attention from being on here without upsetting Maori as well . I have a lot of respect for Maori culture and would not even attempt to butcher any of their Haka without proper instruction. Moves, postures etc would be straight forward enough, however the language and meaning to it is a different story. Sound familiar? Also with respect Steve apart from the passive link in my signature box I'm not on here to push my sales. Goodness knows I do enough of that elsewhere. As for Kagawa............ mawashigeri secrets, ''simply lift your knee up to your ear''. ................ Think I shall go train now before the whanau get up
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jan 2, 2012 21:03:58 GMT
Ernst, I suspect you were taught the old curved/crescent flight path for the 'free leg' (as many in Europe were). It is Totally wrong for a zillion reasons. Many years ago I noticed that while I did the crescent step if I was moving slowly or breaking the step down into its components, I just stepped straight through when I was trying to go fast. I think that crescent stepping, like hikite, is something that may have heuristic value for beginners but is unnecessary later on.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 4, 2012 6:02:21 GMT
Ernst, I suspect you were taught the old curved/crescent flight path for the 'free leg' (as many in Europe were). It is Totally wrong for a zillion reasons. Many years ago I noticed that while I did the crescent step if I was moving slowly or breaking the step down into its components, I just stepped straight through when I was trying to go fast. I think that crescent stepping, like hikite, is something that may have heuristic value for beginners but is unnecessary later on. Hey Neil I held a similar opinion until (about 30 yrs ago) I first met and trained with my now dear friend Dave Hooper. Dave, I think, now holds the record as being the longest training Non Japanese to be resident in Japan and training continually at the JKA. He showed us how Nkayama explained it and believe me it all makes such sense you would never again return to the totally incorrect and useless crescent stepping. With Respect Neil Why practice something that has NO developmental impact? But as said I felt similar to you until I saw it so eloquently explained by DH!
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jan 4, 2012 7:15:59 GMT
I know what you're saying Steve. However, I am not convinced that it has no use. (For example, I think that it helps to emphasize the different muscles that are used in the beginning versus the end of the step.) That said, I think that the original question was a somewhat artificial situation- the three continuous steps in H1. I tend to be more concerned about stepping from a free stance.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 4, 2012 7:40:43 GMT
Neil - It deploys incorrect muscle usage so how can that help! It actually causes incorrect biomechanics given the aim of the step. this is so frustrating - if we were together I could show you in a few minutes - Damn It! ONE DAY I HOPE! which would be nice!
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jan 11, 2012 22:45:01 GMT
If you look at the speed skaters, or a guy rushing down the ice for a puck, you can clearly see cresent stepping(it is the fastest way to skate). Now, I teach stepping like Kawagawa, but I let my feet come together more(is a semi cresent step). However it is not a forced move, and my balance does not go from side to side. I think when people put too much emphasis on cresent stepping, rather than just stepping, we get problems.
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 11, 2012 23:30:30 GMT
I remember training at John Errington's Ormskirk SKC many years ago and Eddie Johnson from St Helens was teaching the zenkutsu dachi/oi zuki feet together scenario and he described it as an anabolic curve movement that accelerated the technique on the outward part of it's journey.
The anaIogy that he used is if you have a straight piece of piping and a curved piece of piping the same lenght and release a ball bearing down both the first ball bearing to the end of the lenght of piping is the one via the curved lenght.
Best Regards Allan
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 11, 2012 23:48:09 GMT
the crescent stepping is simply incorrect guys - the aim and bio- mechanics involved are totally different to skating and Sorry but Eddy's analogy simply doesn't make sense.
it is difficult to describe in writing but in 30 minutes of practice I can convince you all and once grasped you simply would not go back.
It is simple once you have experienced it CORRECTLY and it then makes total sense whereas the crescent stepping just simply does not.
I know it is hard to give up a 'practice' you may have followed for decades but if you cannot justify it why stay with it.
Oh and note - because of practicing it wrong for decades you may well be able to move faster with the crescent step at the moment - that is just lack of practice in the correct way of stepping.
Now don't shoot the messenger just go and find someone to show it you properly and I guarantee it makes so much sense you'll stick with it.
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jan 12, 2012 12:56:39 GMT
The aim and purpose of cresent stepping and figure stepping are the same to me. I would need further references to be convinced otherwise. But, like I said previously, my stepping style is more like Kawagawa, I do not worry about making a c-step, I just step.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 12, 2012 14:15:46 GMT
Its kind of strange, reading Steves post it light a bulb off in my head.
I can recal years ago that instructors coming in from ISKF used to insist on teaching the cresent step. Actually it was a HUGE part of our training with Okizaki and Yaguchi Sensei....
We wondered for a long while and ended up with the JKA direct...and Tanaka and Imura Sensei were my first treat when I returned...NO Talk about cresent stepping at all in the Koyo camps!
I think the step is more for juniors that step bowlegged and the instructors try to correct that...and just kept it as a habit...thats my take.
As long as you dont step like you are trying to mount a horse you can avoid this silly and wastefull practice in my mind.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 12, 2012 22:55:04 GMT
I have to say lads, up until a couple of years ago we were still doing the crescent step because we had never been shown any different. Steve came to our club and pointed out why we should not be doing it and I have found I can generate much more power when moving straight forward now that we have ditched it. We did not just take what he taught at face value, but tested it alongside the crescent step and found it more balanced, efficient and faster ( after he had gone ). Steve would be able to show you within minutes why the crescent step is not efficient for linear techniques , however it is useful if you are using you stance itself to destabilise your opponent or insert your front leg between his, then a half circular step makes sense. not for driving oi-tsuki etc though.
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jan 13, 2012 12:46:46 GMT
In the posted Kawagawa video, from 1:17-1:25 what is he doing? His leg does not move in a straight line, it moves like a figure skater, it moves just like how I do it, and to me that is also a cresent step. It moves in a cresent. The feet to not have to come completely together to be a cresent step. And like James said, as long as you do not look like you are riding a horse, you are fine. I agree the totall feet together and then out again is just for begginers to and maybe then should not even be taught.
|
|