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Post by fujicolt on Jun 16, 2011 17:51:35 GMT
I am a very strong supporter of all students learning and adhering to the correct ettiqutte when in the dojo. I firmly believe that it contributes very positively to both the smooth and disciplined functioning af a Karate class AND i also believe that it enhances the 'Karate Experience' for all involved. Although Shotokan Karate is itself a relatively new Martial Art it is underpinned by historical Japanese Cultural processes that have deep meaning and influence upon the whole process.
However, I personally tell students that in the Dojo the Ettiquette, hierarchy and disciplinary procedures are important but they must remeber that it is 2011 UK and NOT 15th/16th Century feudal Japan.
Whilst I would totally adhere to the continuation of these procedures outside of the Dojo for Masters such as Kanazawa Sensei or the late and Great Enoeda Sensei whom have really earned it I am somewhat uneasy with the manner in which some Karateka (both Japanese and western) take it too far.
I have recently been discussing this with various Karateka and within that broad group there is a strongly held unease that certain people DEMAND and exploit or distort the ettiquette etc in a way that is not deserved or is bordering on abusive and disrespectful to the students and this makes it unwelcome.
Purely out of interest what is your position on it?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 16, 2011 20:59:55 GMT
Just to kick things off on this thread. I went through an exercise a while back of contacting old students who dropped out. I understand that it's not for everyone but like to know in case there's some trend that we're missing. Below is one of the replies I got which may be relevant.
"Hxxxxx and Jxxxx really did enjoy their karate classes with you and thought you were a great and understanding teacher. They thought it was very useful - and particularly enjoyed the personal self-defence classes. The only thing that put them off slightly was the karate etiquette (which they understand is an essential part of the sport and tradition), as occasionally they found it humiliating or disrespectful to them, and it made them uncomfortable. They'd like to emphasise that it was never with you that they felt this."
Our group like to think of themselves as "traditional" but (my personal opinion) we are way over the top. If I dare say, we seem to try to be far more "Japanese" than the Japanese, to what I think of (again, personal opinion) is a level of caricature that is frankly laughable at times. I'm all in favor of proper etiquette in the dojo (sometimes visibly more so than some of my peers) and a level of discipline need to be maintained given the nature of what we do. However, my feeling is that, in this modern age, once we step out of the dojo I'm just some bloke who teaches karate.
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Post by Dod Watt on Jun 16, 2011 21:04:28 GMT
I do think the saying " you've got to earn respect" is correct, don't expect to be respected because now a days you will be quizzed on what you do.
We as karate instructors earn the trust from our students, and the reason for that is, the information we give them and the knowledge we pass on to them, therefore they quickly get into the etiquette side of our training knowing that it could be quite dangerous if they didn't follow the rules.
But I am a strong believer there shouldn't be a divide between teacher and student outside the dojo, one of my best friends is my sensei and some of my students are also my friends, but in the dojo if you are teaching you are the boss.
Etiquette in the dojo shows respect to you as the teacher but it also shows that you have the same respect for the student, for their safety and well being, you give them guidance and help them progress to achieve their goals.
As I said, respect has to be earned.
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 16, 2011 21:42:20 GMT
Very interesting comments Bob and Dod. It would be great if we could get everyone to comment here to - as Bob wisely stated - to see if there is a trend of opinion that we have missed!
I could not agree with Dod more - respect has to be earned and SHOULD be a 2 way process. I know of one Instructor whose students have to wait in the car park before leaving (irrelevant of weather!) until he comes out of the dojo. they all then have to Bow, Shout 'OSU! SENSEI' and NOT get in their cars until he has! Good Grief!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 16, 2011 22:33:49 GMT
The thing is, what I do in dojo is no different to what most of the other instructors do BUT I don't think it's the "what" you do but the "how" you do it (and the reasons behind it) and students can tell the difference.
I think respect is earned rather than demanded and it is very much a two way street. Anybody who has the nerve to walk through the dojo door for the first time has already started down that path with me, my bit's easy, I've been doing it for years.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 16, 2011 22:43:17 GMT
Then why does he (I'm assuming it's a he) actually have any students? I thought we over did things a bit (albeit in a "comedy" manner) but I know just how long I'd last in that situation. Even as a quiet and shy 15 year old (when I first walked in to a dojo) I could spot an a*sehole behind the belt, I didn't stay long I don't know, maybe I'm now just too old to be lost in the wonder of it all
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 16, 2011 22:58:40 GMT
I assume it was how that person always did it so they assumed that it was 'the way' I better not comment much further as it will become very clear whom it is and i am concerned about embarrasing the Students not the Instructor! and with the utmost respect Bob - you wrote: Our group like to think of themselves as "traditional" but (my personal opinion) we are way over the top. If I dare say, we seem to try to be far more "Japanese" than the Japanese, to what I think of (again, personal opinion) is a level of caricature that is frankly laughable at times.yet you stay there! I suppose (but would love to hear comments on it) that people resign to what is the norm within the sturcture and culture they came up in.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 17, 2011 9:44:09 GMT
Personally, I want my students to find me approachable and reproachable. Within the confines of "live play my students refer to me as sensei merely because it is easier for me to react to them ( they cant be talking to anyone else) and for them to get my attention. In emphasising respect for their fellow students I always make it plain that I respect each and every one of them for donning the white pyjamas and turning up. We bow to each other and anyone who has to leave the training area and then return is asked to kneel at the side and wait to be bowed back in . This is explained to them as purely a safety measure as we cant have students wandering in and out. I encourage my students to question what they are told, to form their own opinions and find techniques which suit them. Outside of a training environment I am Jim and I count many of my students as personal friends. All other Japanese etiquette is pretty much disregarded as sycophantic and anyhow we always get it wrong. Most of us have enough trouble understanding the sempai - Kohai relationship without muddling everything else up.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 17, 2011 10:18:14 GMT
'tis a conversation we've already had Steve and I can't change things if I'm not there (although it's becoming apparent to me that there's a limit even to my patience with this). Our bit of "over the topness" really is in the realms of foolishness rather than abuse and just makes us look a bit daft outside the dojo IMO (or even with other karate groups). However from the response I got in the e-mail above it's obviously something I need to keep an eye on, although in that particular situation it's "in dojo" behavior and, as I don't operate my etiquette much differently to the rest of the group, I feel it's down to the attitude with which it's applied rather than the formality itself. From a personal point of view I'd always considered this behavior outside the dojo to be a bit foolish right from the start (maybe because I was old enough to know better) but have lived with it because the benefits of what I was getting in dojo outweighed a little bit of silliness outside (so perhaps I didn't ought to point the finger and wonder why others put up with what they do). I'm still a firm believer in proper dojo etiquette and discipline as it's very much a part of the whole and make sure that my students know what's required in dojo (on the back of this we can also have casual time in dojo as they can turn it back on again when needed) and a lot of people are attracted to the formal side of the art. An example, one of my adult students was quizzing me the other week on the finer points of dojo etiquette because, in her words, "if I'm going to be doing it I want to make sure that I'm doing it right", this same lady has also said to me a while back when we get together with the rest of the group that she can't believe that grown ups act that way outside the dojo (good for her!) As I said previously, my opinion is that outside the dojo, as far as my students are concerned, I'm just some bloke and should be treated that way. Many might say that I already have a high enough opinion of myself that I don't need my ego stroked by others to make me feel important ;D others might say that sometimes I'm just a complete c*ck, (both views have a certain amount of validity ). I just like to think that I'm comfortable being me.
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 17, 2011 11:24:28 GMT
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 17, 2011 11:56:49 GMT
Seems to be a theme developing here, or have you forgotten "the racing anaconda"? I fear you may well be right, certainly an opinion the boy would share judging by our conversation the other night, he seems to have taken on the role of the "cold hard voice of reason" (but still hasn't quite overcome my innate bloody minded stupidity ). I've been subjected to quite a lot of ego stroking lately, some from some quite unexpected quarters. That sort of thing could well go to a boys head if it wasn't so richly deserved
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 17, 2011 12:10:17 GMT
P.S. You are right about the hypocricy thing by the way, (I did already realise that), the situation I am in and my personal views can be very much at odds at times. So when I post of the forum I end up with an "This is what I think" but "This is what I do" situation (cock!). It's still a work in progress
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 17, 2011 20:13:35 GMT
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Post by kensei on Jun 18, 2011 14:58:55 GMT
I have a very strange view on Dojo Ettiqutte. First off its neccessary to keep the Dojo flowing smoothyly, but secondly its OVER FRIGGIN DONE. In a club I would call the instructor Sensei, even if I am visiting I would use the term Sensei because all it really refers to is the lead instructor of that club, outside of the club the only people I call Sensei are my own instructor and people I think deserve that title of respect...like Steve suggested For me it would be Tanaka and the like.
Now, I recently met a TKD 5th Dan that insisted I call him Master Kevin. I replied, as it was unrelated to TKD, that Kevin would be fine. He inisisted that I call him "Master", I did and then insisted that he call me his royal highness...Hey, I am 1,000,000,000 in line to the thrown you know!
Now, my point is...and by the way he did not get this...that calling yourself "Teacher" for the purpose of showing whom you are in the club is much different than making people call you buy a person in the general public....dispite your qualifications and what you have done in a particular feild, your titles are only important to those in your own feild. I refuse to call someone master in any feild! I will say "Master Funakoshi" but to him it would be "Ous Sensei".
Now, I also think that if someone feels uncomfortable with some of the ettiquite you have to look at it and ask why and what specific ettiquite. Bowing is simply shaking hands...Ext.
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Post by superjock on Jun 18, 2011 21:27:38 GMT
Personally my view is that respect and authority have to be earned. Respect is a 2 way street give none you should expect none. If you can't command authority you shouldn't be instructing. There are safety issues round this. I am neutral on the Sensei thing I neither encourage or discourage it. However I will never call anybody master (in any language). Hell my Doctor insists I call him Tony and I would say if anybody deserves a title it's him. My Monday classes are 80% kids, it's pandemonium and noise until I clap my hands for start of class. Not a sound until the final bow. I am not overly strict with them either, having said that I nip daft behaviour in the bud immediately. Yes we bow, it shows mutual respect (I emphasise that point from day 1) and is normal in karate circles. A few of the other stuff like using Japanese terms etc. I have kept for the same reason. Oss and it's derivatives I have banned (too much like brainwashing)as well as other Japanese greetings. This is no disrespect for the Japanese it's just that I cringe when I hear somebody putting on a Scots accent. Japanese people must cringe when they hear us butchering their language. Having moved around a bit I have heard all sorts of pronunciations none even remotely like Enoeda or Kase's. It's silly. I expect every student (with help) to be able to lead the warm up, we show them the same respect as we would show a 'Sensei' while they are doing it. Yes we line up, yes we bow, yes they can call me Andrew or Sensei, yes we attempt to use Japanese names for techniques etc., yes we have behaviour expectations, yes there is mutual respect, no to trying to be Japanese (it's disrespectful) no to oss, no to hai. Is that traditional..............well it is in our club
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 19, 2011 14:42:16 GMT
Thanks ALL for your input - it appears that we have mixed feelings about it all combined with a common thread of thought that dislikes the way it has been distorted. I seem to be leaning more towrds Japanese Culture IN the Dojo and only for true masters outside whereas others are now even limiting it in the dojo as well.
Well I won't be waiting on a car park to Bow to Someone as they get in their car that's for sure.
How many of you use it to identify a hierarchy within your group Kohai and Sempai etc - do you appoint a Dojo Captain or are certain of your Senior people reffered to as Sensei in the Dojo whether they are teaching or not.
Also - for example - if you have a senior whom visits regularly and is clearly YOUR Sensei - We'll name him/her Leslie. if Leslie were on a course with say Tanaka Sensei would you refer to Leslie as Sensei or Leslie in the dojo used?
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Post by superjock on Jun 19, 2011 19:14:46 GMT
We are a small group (I prefer small groups) I had them all primed for our visiting 'Sensei' and how to address him and our other visitors. No need to disrespect their ways. However they are all intelligent enough to know my views on the whole matter. Although there are one or two seniors who may take the class when I'm unavailable no sempai or sensei stuff. Mind you my most senior is only a 5th kyu who would put a few 1st dans to shame (including me at times What and who is a master? Why should I be differential to anybody? Respect = yes, manners = yes, all out hero worship= not in this life. Do I tell people how to live their lives? No. Will I expell anybody that crosses the line= yes. Karate brings together like minded individuals it doesn't create integrity. That being said I don't earn my living from karate, if I have 4 members turn up = good I get to train also. I am also very selfish what I'm working on = what the class is working on we learn and train together. In short it's a first amongst equals scenario like it or move on. That goes for visiting instructors as well, the limit to conforming is calling you Sensei inside the dojo. Outside, Leslie. Ye can caw me anything as long as ye dinny caw me ower (Dod will have to translate that for you)
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 19, 2011 21:05:31 GMT
Andrew -
I sincerely hope that you are NOT suggesting my decision to use Japanese Cultural Ettiquette with the Likes of Kanazawa Sensei or previously Enoada or Kase Sensei as being 'all out hero worship.
I am aware you had very limited exposure to Sensei like them whereas I have had quite a tadge more. It is Pure respect coated with a very clear stance that I wouldn't let them abuse it and I expect them to adhere to certain British cultural processes and bvalues. But no never all out hero worship they would be down the list on my personal hero's.
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Post by superjock on Jun 20, 2011 3:20:47 GMT
You are probably the last person in this world that I would suspect of being a hero worshipper Steve I have done a wee bit training under both Enoeda and Kase sensei both whom I had a great deal of respect for. Both to my knowledge never called themselves (or allowed themselves to be called) master shihan or anything other than Sensei. I have come across people who hero worship their Shihans, Kaichos etc to the point where all common sense appears to fly out the window.
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Post by nathanso on Jun 20, 2011 6:38:54 GMT
One should differentiate between feeling respect for someone, which is feeling based on how highly you view their character, abilities, or other attributes, and showing respect, which (IMO) mostly means treating them in a courteous fashion. The latter is essential for all interactions in the dojo. The former is not- you may view your instructor as a jerk who is an inferior human being, but worth enduring for what you nay learn from him.
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Post by grunners4 on Jul 1, 2011 23:20:05 GMT
with regards the sensei issue, in my situation on the floor my instructor is sensei, off the floor it is first name basis. Our dojo does follow what could be described (according to above) as a bit over the top Japanese etiquette, bowing, oss-ing, hai-ing, mokuso after class, etc. A large portion of the club are in that age group mentioned in another thread (mid teens) and the structure and respect in the dojo is beneficial to them - they don't get to experience it anywhere else!
The bowing at some dojo does get to me though, way too overdone - the front, the sensei, anyone over sandan, then the sempai, then each other. good grief! greet each other when arriving, get on the floor do a bow once and get going.
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 2, 2011 1:58:13 GMT
Andrew - your description of your Dojo sums up how we/I have always also done it.
which I feel actually makes it a Japanese origin experience me thinks
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Post by dek1 on Nov 30, 2011 10:42:40 GMT
In our dojo we call the instructors Sensei when in class and by their name outside the dojo, We bow to the instructor before the class starts, we bow after we complete a exercise or drill before we relax (she calls it relax but its normally a CV exercise). We use the Oss term and once you get to grips that it has many meanings its not complicated. We bow before comencing sparring and at the end, We use Japanese terminology for the punches, blocks kicks and certain drills (Sanbon ect). This makes it sound very regimented but whilst we have a strong work ethic in the club we also have laughs and a camraderie of encouragement. During the class our instructor will use humour and will make light of things when its appropriate and push us hard when its required.
No one in the club instructors or student is above being played a practical joke on after class and the banter is always good in changing rooms after (normally football or a muck up we have done in fact anything). Our Sensei is Sensei in the Dojo in the hall way she is Haley and any other time what ever cheeky name i can think of. She is a friend to us all and to me a workmate. If we tried to call her Master she would just tell us off for it.
The other senior instructors of our association all seem to be well balanced, they all seem to have the same attitude of certain ettequette whilst training mixed with humour and hard work. Our last course the head of the JKS Scotland Paul and his senior instructor Robert had the students relaxed but training hard with their mutual banter towards each other and the students.
As for waiting in the car park ect sorry but its cold up here and my car is not (lol)
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Post by Syl Walsh on Dec 4, 2011 20:11:53 GMT
We are only a small club, but we do all the etiquette that I was always taught! That is what first attracted me to Karate in the first place! In the Dojo during class I am called Sensei, outside class I am called Syl. In Japan all older people and Teachers are called Sensei. It is all so simple "One who has gone before" Sadly some so called school go over the top, as has been already said in this thread! But some schools don't do any, even for Kata, I find this very sad!! Japanese Martial art done the Japanese way? What I really do dislike is Name Dropping, boasting, does not matter who you trained with, but what you trained with!!
Life is a test, you may win this test or fail this test, it demends on how hard to work for the end result
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Post by Syl Walsh on Dec 4, 2011 20:12:11 GMT
We are only a small club, but we do all the etiquette that I was always taught! That is what first attracted me to Karate in the first place! In the Dojo during class I am called Sensei, outside class I am called Syl. In Japan all older people and Teachers are called Sensei. It is all so simple "One who has gone before" Sadly some so called school go over the top, as has been already said in this thread! But some schools don't do any, even for Kata, I find this very sad!! Japanese Martial art done the Japanese way? What I really do dislike is Name Dropping, boasting, does not matter who you trained with, but what you trained with!!
Life is a test, you may win this test or fail this test, it demends on how hard to work for the end result
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Post by bryan on Dec 8, 2011 11:00:43 GMT
In our kids classes we are somewhat more formal with them calling the instructors Sensei and the Black belt kids are called Sempai. Other etiquette as many of you describe. I feel this gives the kids clear guidelines and boundaries for them to follow.
In our adults classes, we are much more relaxed, Instructors are called by their first name (or whatever the student wants to call them.) and the class doesn't bow to the instructor. Discipline is assumed because students want to be there and work hard, if they don't, then they are in the wrong club.
Most people seem to like this approach, but to be fair, I've also had people say that we aren't doing Karate (as they know it)
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 8, 2011 21:57:53 GMT
Bryan, I absolutely support children's classes with proper ettiquette, approriate discipline, a clear hierarchy and LOTS of support and fun. they thrive on it. Good Job!
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Post by kensei on Dec 9, 2011 13:13:40 GMT
I think that calling someone Sempai or Sensei in the Dojo for adults or kids is fine, as long as the right attitude is behind it. I mean when it gets to the point that the big black line is crossed in either direction I am not comfortable.
Kids calling adults by their first name with out permission is not good at any level in my mind. I make my students call adult white belts Mr. or Ms. even if they out rank the person!
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