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Post by middleton on Jul 19, 2011 16:44:38 GMT
Good morning fellow OSS members, Sometime ago I proposed a question on another forum regarding Yakusoku Kumite. I never received much of a response so I would like to re-post my question and opinion below. In my opinion Yakusoku Kumite (Pre-arranged Kumite) is essential in the development of many skills. Maai (coordinating space), Taisabaki (Body evasion), composure and more are all challenged through Yakusoku Kumite. My question relates to a need for a prescribed "sequence" in Yakusoku Kumite. Kanazawa Sensei, and I believe Ohtsuka Sensei (Wado Ryu), and even Judo all have or had prescribed sequences as a method of training. Should we? Bringing our Karate to state of spontaneity and naturalness is accomplished through repetition (In my opinion). Does a "prescribed" sequences in Yakusoku Kumite assist the practitioner in doing so? I remember something Kanazawa Sensei mentioned in an old interview with FAI that has always stuck with me. He mentioned that to develop the practitioner should "Do Kata more like Kumite and Kumite more like Kata". Any opinions? Regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/ |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 20, 2011 1:59:02 GMT
I personally believe that pre-arranged sparring drills are vital for the advancement of various skills. However, as a group we examined the standard shotokan prearranged drills and as a result have added new ones in order to create opportunities to practice the skills that are not covered in the normal drills. it has been an interesting and fruitful exercise with even seasoned Dan grades finding the new drills very difficult. not because the drills are complicated - NO simply because the introduce, in a pre-arranged format - skill practices that the other Kihin Yakusoku Kumites had neglected. Very enjoyable!
the first and most fundamental set of drills we introduced entail (in a similar structure to Gohon Kumite - but we have 6 or 4 steps to instil balance of both sides of the body recieving equal amounts of practice) the totally neglected option for the person stepping forward to the the one 'blocking' and the person retreating being the one 'attacking' - a very common occurance in real combat but shown nowhere in shotokans basic kumite drills. Surprisingly difficult to get students head around in a stylised format at first but great fun and gains made very quickly.
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Post by superjock on Jul 20, 2011 4:57:52 GMT
There are quite a few groups out there doing flow drills to get the moves into the sub-concious. Pat McCarthy has a range of drills covering his 23 habitual acts of physical violence. Not sure but I think Vince uses drills as well. Getting back to shotokan I was on a karate coaching course about 1999 with John & Julie Holdsworth one of the subjects he covered was drilling your favourite 'scoring' technique. Now the way Julie trained was static practise, then burrowing in, moving back, circling etc. the same combo using different scenarios. worked quite well. I ended up with a bloody nose  Peter Consterdine drills on the bag using talking to it and using key words as triggers. |
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Post by kensei on Jul 20, 2011 13:59:20 GMT
Instead of an instructor limiting the type of training that they do or focusing away from something I feel the more we add to training that is a benefit the better.
In the JKA clubs in Winnipeg we do Kata, Bunkai, Kihon (reps and drills), Kumite (5 step, 3 step, one step, semi free, free style light and free style tournament speed), partner drills (one step, two step and multi step), we use equipment like kicking bags, thai pads, couch mits, our own belts, ruber tubes, hand weights, exercise balls, partner calisthenics, calisthenics, makiwara, heavy bags and just about everything and anything you can imagine.
Depending on whom you train under that day depends on the style of training you get. I personally like Kumite and drills, Dingman Sensei likes basics and Kata, and Brian Sensei likes drills and basics. one of our clubs focuses alot on basics while another works alot on Kata and others on Kumite. The nice thing is that we have several students that move from club to club to get a good picture of all the training.
Its a bit of topic but I think the more you can do for a student in way of finding a variaty of training the better they will be for it. Personally I have been adding alot of Tabat style work to the training I teach.
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Post by middleton on Jul 20, 2011 20:24:07 GMT
Thank you all for your replies and input. I agree with James that Karate training should not be limited. The practitioner and instructor must understand a variety of training methods beyond contemporary training in Kata, Kihon, and Kumite. Budo philosophy, strength and conditioning training, flexibility, diet, recovery, and therapeutic methods cover a wide spectrum for the Martial Artist. I regularly practice many of these ideas and have found increased energy, speed, and power while decreasing muscle fatigue and joint soreness. Currently I have been experimenting with "Myofascial Release" with foam rollers. Extremely helpful for recovery and overall health. In essence I feel most traditional Karate practitioners would endorse Kata training. So having a prescribed method of Kumite in the initial stages and beyond would surely be beneficial. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/ |
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Post by tomobrien on Jul 21, 2011 2:32:29 GMT
Last night - Spinning back-fist, SD, ju-jitsu, judo, weapons & sparring! Rumble in the heat & humidity! Rumble 'old man' rumble! Lose weight fast & stay skinny   Thanks, Tom |
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Post by tomobrien on Jul 29, 2011 2:09:07 GMT
Tonight - Taikyaku shodan outside on the grass, singles & doubles, gaurd & posturing up, kimura & grapple, grapple, grapple! Rumble 'old man' rumble!   Thanks, Tom |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 29, 2011 3:07:05 GMT
Would that be your tummy rumbling Tom? Back to the thread - All Yakusoku Kumite is pre-arranged and I believe that for certain lower grades the use of a standard syllabus sequence (such as Gohon Kumite or our Maruchi Ashi Kumite ) are beneficial but there (quite quickly) comes a point at which things should be still prearranged but gradually more difficult - PLEASE NOTE: I really get hissed off with instructors whom believe just adding more and more techniques = MORE Difficult . Often it is only more difficult in terms of memory and stamina - I know of one group that has Dan Grading Kihon combinations of over 26 moves! Pure nonsence! IMHO! When i refer to 'more difficult' I am reffering to the complexity and skill levels involved to perform the stated movement/s in the Yakusoku Kumite NOT just making the seguences longer and longer and longer. For this very reason We have Maruchi Ashi Kumite Shodan, Maruchi Ashi Kumite Nidan etc etc. The sequences become increasingly more difficult due to the skills required to perform the techniques and strategies involved IT IS not just a matter of adding more and more moves that you could teach a bloody Chimpanzee to do. The 'list' may be remembered but the technical standards of the individual techniques, stances, footwork, timing, distancing etc would be (and often sadly are) with this type of schooling, bloddy awful!  Attention to detail is a far superior approach than volume of technique. Sorry for the bit of a rant (snide remarks from kensei will no doubt follow) but unknowing students fall into the trap of believing they are 'progressing' and then can't last two or three moves when faced with a student not of their 'school' whom as been taught HOW to do it correctly and the desire for 'finish the opponent as fast and decisively as possible - such a waste of time, money and effort - and as you have probably guessed, a pet hate of mine!!!  |
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Post by superjock on Jul 29, 2011 7:06:44 GMT
I've been looking hard at sparring drills quite a bit over the last year or two. Main problem I have with the standard gohon and sanbon kumite drills is the fact that you are taught to back off. This is a particularly difficult habit to de-train. One step slightly better but still tends to lead to stepping back or the use of mid-long range techniques, short range techniques were frowned upon when I was in the shotokan fold. Semi-free and free encourage wider distancing than is normal in self-defence situations....or at at least in the 40 or so (confrontations) that I have been involved in Just like to note I walked away from all but one of these without resorting to violence. The one was before I started training. So what have I done? Started by exploring flow drills of the back and forward type (kept all the traditional methods while experimenting) however these were a bit static and although useful were a bit lacking.........and lets face not karate. All the while I was reading up searching Sensei youtube for inspiration. I stumbled across Motobu's 12 kumite years ago but didn't want a poor copy of his art. However the these drills keep the same principle hold your ground or move into the attack. How many blocks in kata move backwards? Ok back to the drawing board.........I have made up a five step kumite (may change to 4 or 6 soon I like that  Rei, Yoi then into a sparring posture (mirrored). We use a lengthened form of sanchin stance with weight evenly spread over both legs. From this stance you can slide forwards into zenkutsu dachi or backwards, to the side, whatever into which ever stance you like. Tori steps forward and punches to the head uke slides in and attacks the punching arm with age uke just on or above the elbow covering the other hand with your non-blocking hand. Uke then counters with the blocking hand and makes a full step back.........repeat. Note this is not one fight five times it is five separate fights. Tori's punches are thrown to make contact..........back steppers are put against the wall. Before anybody gets on their high horse and says hey that's similar to Motou's first kumite...I'll say yes it is but with differences. I have a few more to add over the next week or two which will cover the blocks we use..........all will use the same 'never go back' principles and keep it simple. The strategy is get the first block and counter in (hopefully that's all you'll need) then go to work with the rest of your arsenal strikes, take-downs, and locks etc. As we get more used to the drills we will double up on the punches and eventually add kicks.......but one step at a time. Now you will have noticed that I haven't mentioned chudan punching attacks that is because all of my blocks cross at the elbows in front of my solar plexus, if the punch does get through the 'x' it is spent anyway  Losing a 'point' isn't the end of the world. Further more with this type of sparring you will inevitably end 'up close and personal' therefore as your follow up you will need to explore techniques other than gyakuzuki  |
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 29, 2011 7:45:22 GMT
Hmm... I think we need to focus on what we are training for. Sparring drills of the kumite type are great for drilling certain skill sets and if your focus is tournament type sparring then drill away! However if you are focused on realistic " up close and personal" drills then kata-based sparring is more efficient imo. The closer we get to our opponent the less efficient the whole block punch kick effect becomes and the role of the hikite hand comes to the fore.
I am not saying prescribed and pre-arranged drills are no good I am just saying They are better applied to a certain skill set than another and we should not get confused about the benefits. For instance, a head shot is always going to be the most desirable way of ending a fight ( whether it be jaw , neck etc. ) so why are most kata punches aimed at chudan level,? I believe the target remains the same, just the head position changes. That is not an effect achieved in tournament type karate.
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Post by superjock on Jul 29, 2011 10:19:39 GMT
Hmm... I think we need to focus on what we are training for. Sparring drills of the kumite type are great for drilling certain skill sets and if your focus is tournament type sparring then drill away! However if you are focused on realistic " up close and personal" drills then kata-based sparring is more efficient imo. The closer we get to our opponent the less efficient the whole block punch kick effect becomes and the role of the hikite hand comes to the fore. I am not saying prescribed and pre-arranged drills are no good I am just saying They are better applied to a certain skill set than another and we should not get confused about the benefits. For instance, a head shot is always going to be the most desirable way of ending a fight ( whether it be jaw , neck etc. ) so why are most kata punches aimed at chudan level,? I believe the target remains the same, just the head position changes. That is not an effect achieved in tournament type karate. Good man your on to it As I said elsewhere I'm just no good at writing about it Kata sparring will be the next evolution  I'm on a journey............................ |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 29, 2011 13:50:05 GMT
Tee-hee 'the next evolution' - really - we as a group have been doing it for several decades plus closequarter work Dirlls and semi free and free sparring drills > Jibing aside I know James Luke does this kind of work and I assume you do Andrew but it is sadly NOT the norm in a lot of Shotokan Dojo. They'll 'claim' they do it but when you see what they do it is almost invariably mid and long distance, very linear (putting aside the obligatory 'Step to 45 degrees' that they believe is a study of Tai Sabaki) and VERY limited in Techniques and strategy utilised On a couple of occasions on open courses, I have had people say things akin to: 'That Kumite you had us do today was great Steve. Was that Goju Ryu or something?' they stare agog when you say 'No pure shotokan - go search your Kata and you will see all the principles etc that we studied today - what we did was not Kata Bunkai but you'll find the same principles in your Kata, even the lower Grade Kata such as the Heain's'' Also because we study a very wide arsenal of techniques it is sad when you get Dan grades saying 'I have never done that technique before!' and our green belts are familiar with it. As i have stated several times I was just as guilty but starting the Doors at 19 made me soon realise that had to change and it did!.. Mmmmm....... 19 yrs old - that is almost 15 yrs ago now. |
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 29, 2011 16:08:02 GMT
Choke! Splutter! 15 years ago!!?
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 29, 2011 21:39:45 GMT
Choke! Splutter! 15 years ago!!? Damn it i thought no one would notice put never expected it be you to wound my old heart Jim PMSL! Hope yer well and things going smooth/er |
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Post by superjock on Jul 29, 2011 23:49:24 GMT
Tee-hee 'the next evolution' - really - we as a group have been doing it for several decades plus closequarter work Dirlls and semi free and free sparring drills > As I say I'm on a journey....my highest grades (visitors aside) are 6th kyu so it's been a waiting game until I though they were ready. I have always thrown in kata type sparring but nothing formal. Don't want to give the mpression that this is the application. As part of my grading process I will throw them a section from their kata a couple of weeks before and ask for an application. The juniors get a few breadcrumbs...seniors generally don't need many. Back to the sparring I'm developing the less is more strategy and tying it all in with kihon which coincidently I take from kata. More on that later in the article. I'm doing a bit of an article on the 'whys and what for' which will be less gobbledeegook than my usual ramblings. It's for a manual that I am developing |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 30, 2011 0:13:22 GMT
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Post by superjock on Jul 30, 2011 4:46:58 GMT
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 30, 2011 10:05:42 GMT
I have always thrown in kata type sparring but nothing formal. Don't want to give the mpression that this is the application.
The beauty is you don't have to! There are implicitly implied implications, then secondary, then wherever your imagination takes you. Also, a little research will indicate the greatest likelihood of what you can imply by what people like Funakoshi, Azato, Itosu, Motobu etc had to say about things like hikite, the application of throws and joint attacks etc.
There is some virtue in letting your students play with bunkai even if it is to point out to them why it could not be the case.
They ( kata ) lend themselves well to flow drills and sparring as long as the distance is close-quarter.
The Yakusoku element is great as a tool for teaching and at the beginning must be in a pre-set, proscribed format but I would hope we do not get bogged down in this stage ( for instance by making it a grading requirement so students practice only that taught) but rather it moves on to become more spontaneous and flowing. This can be achieved by allowing tori to attack with either hand or for "uke" to attack pre-emptively.
No limits to the variations if we use some imagination.
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2011 2:08:25 GMT
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Post by superjock on Jul 31, 2011 2:57:45 GMT
James is very good at this type of stuff - I have been very frustrated when teaching on courses with him and I catch glimpses of his work from the other end of the room - usually when he has given me ALL THE KIDS!! (they are joy though if none karate would die now I think!). Ah teaching kids!!! Both necessary and evil |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2011 3:47:15 GMT
Go see my post in the Shotokan Instructors section to learn of one whom was, amongst many things, very good and patient with the Juniors. You'll see what i mean! |
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 31, 2011 8:38:40 GMT
Anyway James - as you know i am encouraging everyone to help the site whilst the Watts are busy so when will your article be ready
Would not know where to start Steve. Tell you what, give me a subject and I will have a go !
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Post by kensei on Jul 31, 2011 16:12:29 GMT
Yakusoku Kumite can be a huge addition to training, it can help work with basic training to add to the tool box and take you from a more basic one step sparring situation and help bring a bit more reality to the mix.
Simple one step sparring is a basis for real fighting kind of like walking is a first step to running a marathon. The next "step" can be semi free but Yakusoku can be more real than semi free as you can add in some more dangerous moves that may not be "smart" to give to just anyone to use.
After Yakusoku kumite and semi free style sparring, free style is a natural step, However it has rules that have to be adheared to for safety sake. So Yakusoku is a great method for training.
The other method that I use is a fee style feel to it but a resisted training where one person plays the bad guy and the other the good guy as it were. One person attacks with any kind of attack they want, even grappling stuff like attacking from behind with a choke. Then the other person reacts as they need to to defend themselves.
The nice part about Karate is that it is as flexible or inflexible as the person teaching it!
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Post by superjock on Jul 31, 2011 19:53:10 GMT
Looks like you guys have been reading my notes |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2011 23:18:09 GMT
Anyway James - as you know i am encouraging everyone to help the site whilst the Watts are busy so when will your article be ready Would not know where to start Steve. Tell you what, give me a subject and I will have a go ! The Joy of teaching Karate. |
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Losing a 'point' isn't the end of the world.
