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Post by fujicolt on Jul 27, 2011 1:32:23 GMT
to educate the newer Karateka and to assist us old farts who shall we say have moments of memory loss! LOL! ;D TAIKYO KYU - First Cause HEIAN SHODAN - Peaceful Mind First Level HEIAN NIDAN - Peaceful Mind Second Level HEIAN SANDAN - Peaceful Mind Third Level HEIAN YONDAN - Peaceful Mind Fourth Level HEIAN GODAN - Peaceful Mind Fifth Level From Heian Ante meaning peace and calmness, taken from the city of Heian TEKKI SHODAN - Horse Riding First Level TEKKI NIDAN - Horse Riding Second Level TEKKI SANDAN - Horse Riding Third Level BASSAI DAI - To penetrate a fortress Major* BASSAI SHO - To penetrate a fortress Minor* KANKU DAI - Viewing the Sky Major* KANKU SHO - Viewing the Sky Minor* HANGESTSU - Half Moon** EMPI - Flying Swallow GANKAKU - Crane on a Rock JITTE - Ten Hands(sometimes spelt JUTTE) JI-ON - From the temple of Jion JI-IN - Temple grounds but to be a tease can YOU name the ones missing and their meaning? Come on tis me yer didn't expect a totally easy ride did yer? LOL!
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Post by kensei on Jul 27, 2011 13:02:12 GMT
Hey Steve, First off the translation for Tekki draws a lot of conflict. I have read Iron Horse, Horse riding ext…..I have also read a few other translations that seem a bit more spot on…will get to that at another time. Bassai does not mean “To Penetrate a fortress”, nor does Kanku Mean “to view the sky” or at least those are poor but accepted translations of the names. Jion and Ji-in are also questionable. The reason I give that is because some “experts” note that Jion is named after the temple Jion-JI….failing to realize that Jion-ji temple is in JAPAN and the Okinawans never knew of this temple…nor does it explain why white crane Karate has a Kata/form that looks like this and I am SURE the Chinese did not invent a Kata, bring it to Okinawa were it was given a JAPANESE NAME! I would assume that they would take from their own culture to name the Kata. the missing kata are: Wankan: Kings crown Meikyo: Gaze into a mirror/reflections of a mirror/polishing a mirror Gojushiho sho/Dai: 52 movements big and small Unsu: cloud hands or hands like a cloud Chinte: Unusual hands / Hands of chin Nijushiho: 24 movements Sochin: Peace and justice. I have seen more translations for these Katas, of many different levels of believability than I can shake a stick at. I can remember being told by a high ranking Japanese instructor that Wankan meant wiggly lines after the Katas Embusen?
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 27, 2011 17:22:32 GMT
Excellent James - I found the little list on a website and hoped (knew) it would draw interesting debate due to both its limited content and questionable content. Pls go and read my pm to you and you'll see i was correct in making the suggestion to you that i did - come on man get on it!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jul 28, 2011 5:03:55 GMT
Just as master Funakoshi changed the meaning of Kara from Chinese to Empty, being the salesman that he obviously was he also gave the kata a more Japanese twist & also a more Japanese name than the original. After all, even the basic katas were callled `pinan` & `naihanchi` ( also naifhanchi). So the original versions of these kata ie.. Passai & Kusanku were slightly & some even quite different than the kata that we do in shotokan it only fits that the names were changed to reflect a Japanese flavour.. Even Bruce Lee said,`don`t get hung up on it, it`s only a name` Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 28, 2011 5:16:46 GMT
Nice point Paul - 'You say: Tamato - I say Tomato'
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jul 28, 2011 13:38:03 GMT
Oh man! You`re way too agreeable Steve. I was expecting a lecture about preserving history, although we still promote evolution. I was so prepared to argue that by trying to cling on to history, while promoting evolution, was kind of like `having your cake & eating it too`. Now I`ll just sulk & think about the fun I`m not having!!!! ;D ;D Osu Paul B
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Post by kensei on Jul 28, 2011 13:46:35 GMT
Just as master Funakoshi changed the meaning of Kara from Chinese to Empty, being the salesman that he obviously was he also gave the kata a more Japanese twist & also a more Japanese name than the original. After all, even the basic katas were callled `pinan` & `naihanchi` ( also naifhanchi). So the original versions of these kata ie.. Passai & Kusanku were slightly & some even quite different than the kata that we do in shotokan it only fits that the names were changed to reflect a Japanese flavour.. Even Bruce Lee said,`don`t get hung up on it, it`s only a name` Paul B Here is the problem with studying something from a different culture and language…a language so completely different. Pinan is the “Okinawan” pronunciation of “Heian” or rather the other way round….Naihanchi/Naifanchi is the Okinawan original to Tekki, Passai= Bassai, ext and so on. Funakohsi only truly had several Katas Changed. Chinto became Gankaku, Rohai became Meikyo and Wanshu became Empi…..Chinto means fighting to the east and Gankaku Crane on a rock…..Rohai means vision of a crane/heron and Meikyo meaning to gaze into a mirror…while Wanshu means…strong arm form or dragon dumping form and Empi means flying swallow. Funakoshi had meant to change even more names of Kata to be more than just “Japanese ways of saying the original” he wanted to change Gojushiho Dai to “Woodpecker” Kata….but apparently it did not catch on. Funakoshi was a great marketing mind, he knew that he had to change the names of the Katas and even the fundamentals of Karate to have it accepted by the Japanese people, of which Funakoshi was a foreigner to. The Japanese viewed the Okinawan as “kind of Chinese” or “Hicks” to their more imperial society. The Okinawa’s were caught between being Chinese and Being Japanese, while trying to maintain their Okinawan culture. From what I have read it was a strange society to have to live in. A large percentage of the island people wanted China to rule them and they wanted to be much like other islands off of the Chinese coast, living under the Chinese rule and identifying with that culture, another percentage felt that Japan was the cultural context that they wanted to adhere to. They wanted Japanese rule, Japanese cultural identities and many moved to Japan to live and felt they wanted to have Japanese lives. Even Funakoshi changed the family last name to some respect. I have in my library of paper work somewhere a note saying that his accepted name was Funakoshi…a Japanese version of the Okinawan name he was born with. It looks the same but is said differently. The last group of people were wanting to keep Okinawan people and culter different from the invaders of the island nation. They battled hard to keep the culture and did not like Japan nor China trying to impose their views and thoughts on their culture. It is obvious that Funakoshi was on the side of the Japanese, even his masters had traveled to Japan so their influence was strong in him. He after all did leave for Japan and not China like many of his peers did. Now the culture and ideologies of Pre WWII Japan are well known, it is only natural that a person that had such respect for the Japanese culture at the time would take on these views, including the biases and even the racist and fanatical views. I recall talking to Carl, one of my grad fathers best friends about WWII and both him and my grandfather said that Hitler was a cruel man that could talk you into just about anything and that just because you fell victim to his racist propaganda did not make you a bad person, it just meant that you got caught up in the mess and most often felt bad about it later. Carl would know….he faced many a battle during the war…when he served in a German U-boat! Now the old Canadian Sapper was best friends with the Nazi U-boat submariner. So, don’t fault Funakoshi for his bias views and changing names to be more Japanese, his views on us white devils…it was what he was told to think and what the propaganda pushed on others….and to some extent the reminisce of bigoted ideology that some Japanese still have for the west.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 28, 2011 13:47:52 GMT
Paul, will try not to "get hung up on it" however Funakoshi states in "Karate-do, my way of life" that both the characters for Chinese hands and empty hands were in use during his lifetime, he merely chose one over the other to suit marketing purposes. Kanku is the Japanese pronunciation of Kushanku, the originator of the Kata himself. I always understood Tekki to mean iron Knight , however Naihanchi is closer to the truth and resembles an Okinawan style of wrestling. I have heard Tekki described as used for fighting on horseback! ludicrous and just as daft as for fighting in paddy fields! We cannot know for sure the original intent of the kata but we can throw out the stuff that is patently nonsense!
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 29, 2011 3:11:09 GMT
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 29, 2011 8:13:34 GMT
I dont think we can accuse Funakoshi of being bogged-down with traditional Japanese dogma and ideas. He tells how the country was split in two by the proposed government edict that everyone should desist from wearing the traditional top-knot hairstyle and how it was a condition of his employment as a young teacher that he have his cut off. He confesses to having no problem with this and not seeing the point of arguing about something so trivial, but how he trembled when he had to face his parents in his new uniform and shorn of head . his parents lineage was of minor samurai status and his father was aghast, asking " What have you done to yourself!?" his mother apparently fled the house to stay with relatives and did not speak to him for some time after. From what I have read Funakoshi seems an honourable man who was forward thinking in his ideas and ideals and realised that Japan was ready to join the west in embracing new ideas and technology whereas China would not be ready until far into the future.
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Post by kensei on Jul 29, 2011 13:27:24 GMT
From what I have read Funakoshi seems an honourable man who was forward thinking in his ideas and ideals and realised that Japan was ready to join the west in embracing new ideas and technology whereas China would not be ready until far into the future. I dont know so much about that. He was very traditional and probably only bent to the will of the removal of the top not because his "Japan" insisted he did. He however did not do things like mention names of things that he felt were far bellow him in status. A funny example I recal was when he was unpacking after moving back to Tokyo one of his students was helping him and he asked for "those" and pointed at the socks....the student played with him a bit and asked "which"? This went on for a mintue or two and a frustrated Funakoshi reached out and grabbed his own socks. Funakoshi was a very traditional gent!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jul 29, 2011 13:29:11 GMT
What a fun post to read. A lot of historical significance & opinions . Great stuff guys. One thing that I think we all agree on is that a main mission of Funakoshi`s was to `Sell` karate & by becoming more Japanese & lets not forget about targeting the universities for the young & soon to be wordly. He was a pioneer in marketing & ultimately got in motion a similar type of approach as the pyramid method of business, for getting karate out to the world.. Paul B
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Post by kensei on Jul 29, 2011 13:31:31 GMT
Lets face it the old way was not working. Teaching one or two students per generation would take way to long to produce a marektable endevour. So, go to the uni and grab all the young bucks, teach them...take the most impressive of them and send them out to the world...instant hit!
I think the old Okinawans were just jelous of him. The very peers that had issue with this type of expansion soon joined him!
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 30, 2011 2:44:39 GMT
Only problem is guys - is did he sell us tripe or sirloin steak!
and who the heck are we 'Westerners' to ci=riticise his adherence to a 'Japanese' way even if not worthy of it.
We still have westerners whom speak broad colloquial accents but once in a class have the Japanese Karate Master voice and the arrogant posturing. we still have instructors whom expect of western students a respect and kowtowing that is baltantly disgraceful AND we stil Have karate seniors (japanese and western) whom try to stifle our gregarious and enguiring nature as they forget to forget we are (forexample)
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Post by kensei on Jul 30, 2011 13:28:12 GMT
Only problem is guys - is did he sell us tripe or sirloin steak! and who the heck are we 'Westerners' to ci=riticise his adherence to a 'Japanese' way even if not worthy of it. We still have westerners whom speak broad colloquial accents but once in a class have the Japanese Karate Master voice and the arrogant posturing. we still have instructors whom expect of western students a respect and kowtowing that is baltantly disgraceful AND we stil Have karate seniors (japanese and western) whom try to stifle our gregarious and enguiring nature as they forget to forget we are (forexample) But Steve you will never get rid of that kind of stupidity. And again I would point out that we dont have the market cornered on stupidity! I recal a gymnastics coach of mine who taught some moves with a very Russian accent...because his instructor was Russian...Said coach grew up in Saskachewan! The attitude comes mainly from being insecure. I get in Crap all the time for joking around with students, for being friendly with yellow belts and for chatting with green belts about things that are not Karate related and .....Dare I say it....Acting as if they were my equal The thing is that I have always felt that the more we remember that the only difference between us and the students is our knowledge of Karate...and to be frank in the grand system of all things...thats not worth a bucket of spit when you also have to worry about work and family, we would all be better off realizing a few realities of life here..... First off our students are not our JUNIORS IN LIFE, just in this crazy and lovable activity we all do...and secondly they are our friends and more importantly for some....our clients! If we treat them like crap and they stick around they need a head shrinker not a Karate instructor....or a Dominatrix...and I dont look good in leather chaps...not that I have tried them.... anyways back on to Karate. The pacing and pouting that most instructors who have attitudes do is counter productive in all ways. Get your hands dirty for christs sake and get out their and actually mingle and teach....dont just count and say "back in the old days...." or " IN Japan...." ACTUALLY DO IT> People are paying to learn Karate...not learn how it was done, should be done, can be done or could have been done...Teach them how to do it! Now as for Funakoshi, I dont think he brought crap to the table, but maybe a more conventional attitude of the times.
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2011 2:21:17 GMT
Sorry Guys for some reason only half of this post actually came through and i had to dash and therefore hadn't checked it. Only problem is guys - is did he sell us tripe or sirloin steak! and who the heck are we 'Westerners' to criiticise his adherence to a 'Japanese' way even if not worthy of it. We still have westerners whom speak broad colloquial accents but once in a class have the Japanese Karate Master voice and the arrogant posturing. we still have instructors whom expect of western students a respect and kowtowing that is blatantly disgraceful AND we stil Have karate seniors (japanese and western) whom try to stifle our gregarious and enguiring nature as they forget to remember we are (forexample) British or scandanavian etc and therefore enjoy to meet people with similar interests irrelevant of whom they are affiliated to. God forbid that we should dump the Sensei ?student Sempai/Kohai hierarchy ladder when outside of the Dojo. _ we notice it at the friendship Courses - when someone joins us for the first time. They have expressed shock (but enormous pleasure) at seeing students and teachers, Juniors and seniors chatting away as friends and helping each other. when they realise they are allowed to do it also they are often very nervous at first because IF they dared to do it within thier Base Organisation it would be frowned upon and in some even punished! Having read Kensei's response to my half missing post = I COULD NOT AGREE MORE (BUT I have to be honest and admit you coulda told me that SASKACHEWAN was in Russia and i woulda believed yer. I suppose to you James it would be like us saying 'and the guy is from Accrington Stanley! LOL!
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 25, 2011 7:22:38 GMT
Just as master Funakoshi changed the meaning of Kara from Chinese to Empty, being the salesman that he obviously was he also gave the kata a more Japanese twist & also a more Japanese name than the original. After all, even the basic katas were callled `pinan` & `naihanchi` ( also naifhanchi). So the original versions of these kata ie.. Passai & Kusanku were slightly & some even quite different than the kata that we do in shotokan it only fits that the names were changed to reflect a Japanese flavour.. Even Bruce Lee said,`don`t get hung up on it, it`s only a name` Paul B Here is the problem with studying something from a different culture and language…a language so completely different. Pinan is the “Okinawan” pronunciation of “Heian” or rather the other way round….Naihanchi/Naifanchi is the Okinawan original to Tekki, Passai= Bassai, ext and so on. Funakohsi only truly had several Katas Changed. Chinto became Gankaku, Rohai became Meikyo and Wanshu became Empi…..Chinto means fighting to the east and Gankaku Crane on a rock…..Rohai means vision of a crane/heron and Meikyo meaning to gaze into a mirror…while Wanshu means…strong arm form or dragon dumping form and Empi means flying swallow. Funakoshi had meant to change even more names of Kata to be more than just “Japanese ways of saying the original” he wanted to change Gojushiho Dai to “Woodpecker” Kata….but apparently it did not catch on. Funakoshi was a great marketing mind, he knew that he had to change the names of the Katas and even the fundamentals of Karate to have it accepted by the Japanese people, of which Funakoshi was a foreigner to. The Japanese viewed the Okinawan as “kind of Chinese” or “Hicks” to their more imperial society. The Okinawa’s were caught between being Chinese and Being Japanese, while trying to maintain their Okinawan culture. From what I have read it was a strange society to have to live in. A large percentage of the island people wanted China to rule them and they wanted to be much like other islands off of the Chinese coast, living under the Chinese rule and identifying with that culture, another percentage felt that Japan was the cultural context that they wanted to adhere to. They wanted Japanese rule, Japanese cultural identities and many moved to Japan to live and felt they wanted to have Japanese lives. Even Funakoshi changed the family last name to some respect. I have in my library of paper work somewhere a note saying that his accepted name was Funakoshi…a Japanese version of the Okinawan name he was born with. It looks the same but is said differently. The last group of people were wanting to keep Okinawan people and culter different from the invaders of the island nation. They battled hard to keep the culture and did not like Japan nor China trying to impose their views and thoughts on their culture. It is obvious that Funakoshi was on the side of the Japanese, even his masters had traveled to Japan so their influence was strong in him. He after all did leave for Japan and not China like many of his peers did. Now the culture and ideologies of Pre WWII Japan are well known, it is only natural that a person that had such respect for the Japanese culture at the time would take on these views, including the biases and even the racist and fanatical views. I recall talking to Carl, one of my grad fathers best friends about WWII and both him and my grandfather said that Hitler was a cruel man that could talk you into just about anything and that just because you fell victim to his racist propaganda did not make you a bad person, it just meant that you got caught up in the mess and most often felt bad about it later. Carl would know….he faced many a battle during the war…when he served in a German U-boat! Now the old Canadian Sapper was best friends with the Nazi U-boat submariner. So, don’t fault Funakoshi for his bias views and changing names to be more Japanese, his views on us white devils…it was what he was told to think and what the propaganda pushed on others….and to some extent the reminisce of bigoted ideology that some Japanese still have for the west. if there was a "like" button here I certainly would push it.....great read James!
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Post by kensei on Aug 25, 2011 14:45:14 GMT
its like anything else in life, we are far to busy living our lives and trying to survive and trying to deal with the people in our lives to realize that alot of our ideas are "snuck" in propoganda from different sources.
personally I am way to busy worried about my family, job and health to realize that the commercial about Coke is making me like coke or that the news paper I read is far to liberal and that my information is being filtered through that liberal source...next thing you know your ideals are slowly being changed, your way of thinking is altered and all that while your attentions are being distracted by little things like growing older, worries about kids and your wife and your relationships, jobs ext.
You can not fault people for slowly changing views to the popular view. Its when it goes off the deep end that we tend to realize that we have been straying way to wide a path from our original ideal. point to any major horrors in history and those that followed allong and "let it happen" often are those that were just trying to survive and may not have directly pushed the event to a head, but were complacent and even started to believe the hype behind it.
In Funakoshis case he was simply influenced by those around him and his views were skewed by the times and the hype at that moment. I mean think of the force of which the Japanese government tried to build up the national ideals, it was bound to affect the way a person thought.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 27, 2011 18:00:43 GMT
I found your post very interesting and illuminating James - you are very correct IMHO and i believe that sometimes we have to pause for a moment and state 'This aint right'.
When you are passionate about a subject - as we are with Karate - I believe that you have a right to voice your opinions or say 'NO' to a particular course of action or development that does not fit in with either the moral values you hold or the research and knowledge you have, over many years, gained. That is to say - If you are (for example) familiar with the current research that shows 'old' streching or training methods are not only wrong but may also be counter productive or even damaging - it is your right, even duty, to voice that opinion and knowledge.
Sadly, IMHO, no matter how long you have trained, no matter how skilled or knowledgable you have become - thier are those that still believe that only the Japanese can comment.
Even if that Japanese Karateka (Whilst skilled) has only a half or less of your experiences and training time.
Sad but true I believe!
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Post by kensei on Aug 29, 2011 15:01:20 GMT
Even if that Japanese Karateka (Whilst skilled) has only a half or less of your experiences and training time. You are not the only one to think this is Sad. We are entering a strange time in the lineage of Karate. We are at a point were many Western (and even european ) instructors are senior to many of the Japanese Karate instructors, in time...if not rank! The western instructors have put in 30-50 years of training and some instructors who are 28 are senior in rank or seen as being holding some kind of secret because they were born in Japan and trained with Japanese their whole lives. Its sad when you take a class from them and realize that they are two or three ranks higher than your instructor and know half of what he knows. We will see more and more groups drop away from the JKA because of this and other major groups. The ISKF will lose lots of top level people once Okizaki and Yaguchi Sensei retire because the next in line is junior to people than he is expected to govern over. Just because Rank has been issued, does not mean that the person has the time in and knowledge or skills to back that up. One must think that this will cause issues.
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 1, 2011 18:52:27 GMT
James, tis already a mess and, will i believe, only produce more. The JKA will probably survive for a few decades longer but diminishing in size continually I predict.
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