|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 6, 2011 1:54:38 GMT
Whilst doing research for my book it has become blatantly obvious to me - in all styles - that splits from the core group are so very common.
At first this deisheartened me as it initially appeared that Karateka just cannot 'get on'.
However, now - after months of finding it - I am not so sure. almost without doubt I suspect MONEY is involved in many cases and I am not going to deny that.
BUT I am also finding another common thread - Karateka are tired of the competition and pre-arranged (limiting) Grading Systems and many are - it appears - deeply concerned and trying to bring Karate back into it's original 'MARTIAL' intent.
These groups tend to be smaller, more localised (but similar in intent no matter what area of the world they are located in). They are far more open minded and seem to enjoy training with other groups.
Whilst the larger groups tend to 'voice' openmindedness and tolerance - they tend to be insular and seemingly VERY controlling.
I have recently had a discussion with a friend about me coming to his dojo to teach. Apparently IF he does it without inviting anyone else from his association he can 'get away' with that BUT if he opened it up to others and outside groups his core association would give him Jip!
My comments above are, of course, based on my observations - what have you found?
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 6, 2011 2:04:49 GMT
Oh and i forgot to add - when i ask those in the larger groups , the core members - why they put up with this crap they sadly often reply :
'because our group is INTERNATIONALLY recognised - the smaller ones often aren't!'
when i then say
'but if the shit hits the fan wouldn't you prefer to have a functional Karate rather than a limited BUT internationally recognised Karate?'
they often can't answer or say 'I know but i like to be able to say i have xxx associations certificates' or 'Have xxxxxx name on my grading Card!
is it only me that feels this is very sad cos XXXX won't be with them in the alley when the muggers come and who REALLY gives a shit about XXX grading certificates anymore - for crikey sake you can buy them on the Internet anyway!
|
|
|
Post by stevenm on Aug 6, 2011 9:20:36 GMT
Are licence fees/insurance costs cheaper with larger groups? Just a thought. Also, maybe this works the other way. Without the big groups, maybe there would be hundreds of smaller ones, all doing different things, and all calling it Karate. You would inevitably get a few good ones, but you only have to spend ten minutes on Youtube to discover what nonsense people are willing to pay for. Big groups exist because of the Kudos of the Chief Instructor/ Founder. People aspire to be like them, and to know what they know. Human Nature i suppose.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 6, 2011 10:21:08 GMT
I am with a "large "group at present purely for insurance purposes. I have virtual autonomy and non-interference. However it is a two-edged sword in that the group is too far away for us to attend any of the courses they offer and as they tend to be referees and timekeepers courses it is questionable whether I would bother anyway. The y have an annual tournament but I found them biased and too "health and safety" conscious to take seriously . Having autonomy is fine as far as it goes but we all need a "fresh eye" applied to our standards now and again just to keep you on your toes. Although it has never particularly bothered me, it was pointed out to me also that I am probably one of the higher grades within the association and yet have never had an offer to come and teach in my area nor have I ever been asked to grade students, or run a course on behalf of the association. So , not getting much out of it apart from insurance and grading records. being part of a large group mostly means being overlooked and used as a cash- cow. It has little to do with martial prowess or technical ability.
|
|
|
Post by stevenm on Aug 6, 2011 10:46:00 GMT
Sounds fine , as long as you have confidence in your own clubs standards. Why not invite other association instructors visit to your club, if you feel that your students would benefit. It sounds like the crux of the matter is lack of autonomy vs isolation.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 6, 2011 12:24:31 GMT
Because as Steve says, it is not encouraged.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 7, 2011 22:29:28 GMT
Are licence fees/insurance costs cheaper with larger groups? Just a thought. Also, maybe this works the other way. Without the big groups, maybe there would be hundreds of smaller ones, all doing different things, and all calling it Karate. You would inevitably get a few good ones, but you only have to spend ten minutes on Youtube to discover what nonsense people are willing to pay for. Big groups exist because of the Kudos of the Chief Instructor/ Founder. People aspire to be like them, and to know what they know. Human Nature i suppose. Really - be like them and know what they know Mmmm..... But how can you do that when IF you're lucky the nearest you'll ever get to them will be in a Dojo with a few hundred others trying to follow the instruction - which is the same old stuff again and again and outside the Dojo you get your obliatory Photo with them but NO chance to sit Down and ask them questions before they are whisked off to the evening meal with the chosen few. And do we really want to know that 'some' will do senior grading certificates for a 'fee' or take licence money and then do not register you with the International headquarters etc etc!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 7, 2011 22:37:42 GMT
Oh - and i want to be claer - I am not suggesting everyone should be in smaller groups , or larger ones for that matter. I merely told you what i have found and asked what your experiences have been. So lets see then folks - just let us know how it has been for you as Jim L did! Thanks it helps me perpare a chapter for the book! Which is doing me head in I have so much stuff now LOL!
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Aug 8, 2011 16:04:00 GMT
Here is my .01 cents worth on this topic for you steve.
First off bigger organizations have cheaper insurance that you can piggy back and as long as you send in you dues on time you done have to worry about them not wanting you in the group in general. If you go it alone it can cost you A LOT more money for each student to be insured. However it seems that if you are paying $35 for your yearly dues the only thing you should expect is a fancy peice of paper saying you are in and the insurance..nothing else! But, for $35 thats enough for me and my students...oh, and $50 per dojo! but again, if you were to price this out on your own its a bargin!
Bigger groups also have camps and training events that allow you to train with new partners and new people and hone your skills against people that dont know you...this is always good. However, the camps are often in areas you cant get to, they are way expensive and only a few of your students may even be interested in attending, then you have the group questioning your loyalty when your students dont want to pay to travel that far and train with people they dont know...and the bigger groups dont often ask you to host to make it easier for us all to get to know each other.
They also supply tournament options for those in the organization that want to compete. But again, as much of a selling point as this is...the tournaments are often far away, biased judging (which I have not run into myself yet) and are filled with issues that turn students off of going to them.
They hold clinics that can help you advance your skills. However these clinics are often hit or miss and you sometimes walk into a class with a high level instructor waiting for great teaching and classes and get an hour of Heian shodan with no instruction after flying hours and or driving for a day to get their...and paid alot of money for it.
You will get to meet great people and make life long friendships, you can get a great feel for a group and seem to fit in like peas in a pod...you may also run into a tone of butt clowns that are hungry for power and who want to push you around just because they can. Small minded morons that want power over substance and think the world owes them because they were here first...this...I have run into. the whole idea of coming together under Karate to be stronger and grow together seems to be a concept that these morons can not grasp. AVOID these people and organizations with everything you can.
Bigger groups mean standardized curriculums, knowing what to train for in order to grade and having a cohesive testing curriculum can make training juniors much easier. It however also means that training tends to be more about sports and less about SD. the application of techniques tends to have NO meaning and you just learn the dynamics of kicking and punching with out how to use them or when. Its like learning how to load and point a gun, but never being taught what happens when you pull the trigger, when you should pull the trigger or what it feels like to pull the trigger! IN my mind..that is way to limiting and why we end up with the issues and arguments we do in the general public about Karate and its effectiveness.
You can travel and train almost anywere in the world, as long as you stick to the organization and dont try and train outside the organization.
Now, I am a tad bit of a heritic admittedly and while I dont particularly like big groups because of the risk of having some very unlikable people whom you can not work with at all in the throws....I am not against them. I have JKA running thru my veins and always will, but that does not mean I will always be JKA affiliated. I remember the old days and I look up to the old instructors in the JKA....but I have seen many JKA and JKA affiliated groups that I would not want to be part of or felt embarassed that I was part of after they melted down or did silly stuff. But I am not soured on organizations just yet. I think its a matter of finding one that you fit into and you are comfortable with....and that is the key
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 4:28:56 GMT
Thanks Kensei - interesting stuff. Anyone else have any comments? Please.....
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Aug 16, 2011 11:11:25 GMT
Don't know because I don't have any comparison. Within our small group license/personal insurance is around £17-£18 per year. My Instructor 3rd party liability insurance costs me around £70 per year. How does that stack up with the larger groups?
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Aug 17, 2011 14:18:09 GMT
our small group looked for insurance on our own and it worked out to $65 a year per student, or $35 in an organization. the 3rd party liability worked out to $200 a year for an club, or $50 with an big organization.
|
|