|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 15, 2011 6:11:05 GMT
Here at Daidokan the main aim is self-defence not winning fights or competition points. The ultimate aim is to avoid the fight altogether but if it all goes to custard the strategy is to fight to escape rather than to win the fight. To this end I have explored various drills and routines but they inevitably involved some form of too-ing and fro-ing moving back or combinations designed for a fight. General concenus among doormen and 'real' fighters is that action beats reaction every time and that we should all be pre-pared to pre-empt an attack. This I agree with but there are lots of mental barriers that stop law abiding people from doing so. Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdine advocate the use of a fence i.e. hands used as an inoffensive barrier between you and what may be some innocent party who really only wants directions time etc. The kamae (posture) we adopt is a fudo-sanchin type stance as it can be quickly adapted from a 'social' stance. Hands are out in front again this posture can be quicky transfered from the fence position. Front hand is held high in front with the back hand closed fist covering the solar plexus. From a front view the attacker has only low or high target options. With your conditioning this should render chudan attacks obsolete. Attacker attacks to the head defender moves in with a block (read the Motobu link) or page 31 of Pat McArthy's book. The block should be an attack, the blocking hand should instantly become the countering hand. If you block then counter it should be simualtanious. The non-blocking hand smothers the other attacking hand. This is the important bit move in on the attack, hurt the attacking limb, smother the attack and hit your opponant with whatever is nearest. This is the initial contact or starting point, hopefully it will finish it but if not unleash your arsenel on him/her. We start with pre-determined (single) attacks all jodan (still working on gedan kicks will probably take the form of a leg check), blocking and countering using the principles mentioned i.e. block and counter with the same hand where possible. It is important for the attacker to attack, defender should be unnerved (feel the fear) i.e if you don't block you will get hit. We work this as a 4 or 6 step drill however it is not one continuous fight but rather 4 or 6 individual fights. The defender can if he/she likes invite the attack by exposing an opening. Attacker should hone his/her prre-emption skills by attacking at the best opportunity this ensures that the defender has to be switched on. After a while we move onto continuus attacks or at least trying to smother them. As we get more competant at this we will free it up a bit but in line with the self-defence aim one will be the attacker, attacking with whatever and one the defender. We are experimenting with pulling out kata moves and using the same principles as above using them as our defence. For safety reasons we will only indicate some attacks but will perform the same kata immediately after the sparring to allow full expression. Another twist is to look for a take-down or lock immediately after your counter. This type of sparring is not designed for winning competitions as I have taken away chudan blocks, chudan attacks are covered by kamae (posture) and conditioning. Although (for the time being) I have removed reverse gear from blocking angling and evasion are allowed. The aim of this sparring is for self-defence i.e. fight to escape not hurt or win, although it is well recognised that it may be necessary to hurt. We have found that this type of sparring generates a few bruises and can test the nerves. Have fun  |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 4:01:20 GMT
It looks like your on a great adventure Andy that will reap many rewards. A little advice though from someone whom has experienced amore than a little of the real and rough stuff - reconsider your thinking on the chudan area.  In all the years of involvement the only really significant injury i had was courtesy of a full on brawl in a nightclub in Aberdeen after i had knock the Head Doorman unconscious. All hell broke loose and although i managed to nail him i did recieve several cracked ribs courtesy of a Boxer who caught me perfectly with a body shot. Dod will give you full details if you PM Him or you'll have to wait for the book. I also have used, and witnessed, many 'situations ' being sorted with body shots! Worth a thought my Friend  |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 16, 2011 7:16:53 GMT
It looks like your on a great adventure Andy that will reap many rewards. A little advice though from someone whom has experienced amore than a little of the real and rough stuff - reconsider your thinking on the chudan area. In all the years of involvement the only really significant injury i had was courtesy of a full on brawl in a nightclub in Aberdeen after i had knock the Head Doorman unconscious. All hell broke loose and although i managed to nail him i did recieve several cracked ribs courtesy of a Boxer who caught me perfectly with a body shot. Dod will give you full details if you PM Him or you'll have to wait for the book. I also have used, and witnessed, many 'situations ' being sorted with body shots! Worth a thought my Friend I hear what you are saying Steve, however with my kamae I keep my ribs covered with elbows. Blocks all start with elbows coming together covering middle area. I have had an experience or two myself first and last never really tried to hit the buggers and always came away unscathed = lucky |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 23:33:31 GMT
It looks like your on a great adventure Andy that will reap many rewards. A little advice though from someone whom has experienced amore than a little of the real and rough stuff - reconsider your thinking on the chudan area. In all the years of involvement the only really significant injury i had was courtesy of a full on brawl in a nightclub in Aberdeen after i had knock the Head Doorman unconscious. All hell broke loose and although i managed to nail him i did recieve several cracked ribs courtesy of a Boxer who caught me perfectly with a body shot. Dod will give you full details if you PM Him or you'll have to wait for the book. I also have used, and witnessed, many 'situations ' being sorted with body shots! Worth a thought my Friend I hear what you are saying Steve, however with my kamae I keep my ribs covered with elbows. Blocks all start with elbows coming together covering middle area. I have had an experience or two myself first and last never really tried to hit the buggers and always came away unscathed = lucky Maybe I am not quite understanding what you are suggesting - would make a neat article for the forum -  |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 17, 2011 9:45:21 GMT
I hear what you are saying Steve, however with my kamae I keep my ribs covered with elbows. Blocks all start with elbows coming together covering middle area. I have had an experience or two myself first and last never really tried to hit the buggers and always came away unscathed = lucky Maybe I am not quite understanding what you are suggesting - would make a neat article for the forum - Pictures would be better my writing is crap  There are heaps of subtleties as you can imagine I'll give it a bash but I'm a bit computered out at the moment. Comes from writing bloody programme and department safety manuals all day. Want my chainsaw back I'm not cut out to be an office wallah  |
|
|
|
Post by grunners4 on Aug 17, 2011 11:05:23 GMT
Andrew, just seeing what you have written on the forum over the last while I think we are in pretty much the same place. Especially with regards to effective defence (pre-emptive over reactive).
Just one thing from what you wrote above is the take-down issue. My view with take-downs is the the work needs to be done first to ensure that the opponent is not going to get up again. This means that headshots, elbows, knees, body shots groin shots etc first take their toll to a point where the opponent won't be able to resist a throw. Anytime before this point could land you in trouble and on the ground as well, not an ideal. This is the continual advantage aspect where once you have a gap, you take it and keep attacking until you are not in danger anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 17, 2011 19:20:15 GMT
Andrew, just seeing what you have written on the forum over the last while I think we are in pretty much the same place. Especially with regards to effective defence (pre-emptive over reactive). Just one thing from what you wrote above is the take-down issue. My view with take-downs is the the work needs to be done first to ensure that the opponent is not going to get up again. This means that headshots, elbows, knees, body shots groin shots etc first take their toll to a point where the opponent won't be able to resist a throw. Anytime before this point could land you in trouble and on the ground as well, not an ideal. This is the continual advantage aspect where once you have a gap, you take it and keep attacking until you are not in danger anymore. Take downs locks etc. I'm on the same page as yourself, bloody hard to do either on a strong, aggressive, non-compliant opponent. We are playing with initial response including uke pre empting if there is an opening. It's after the initial attack and counter (series of counters) that we are looking at follow up = maintaining zanshin. My guys are also getting to the stage that after the yoi etc. they must remain 'switched on' in red alert if you like. If they find that you are distracted by something else in the dojo they can expect to be attacked regardless of whether they are tori or uke  There are hundreds of nuances involved and a lot of background drills and practise (all goal based) going on. The system is like a huge spiders web each thread adding to the strengths of the others.Would take a book and somebody betterer at writing than me to write it. Really looking forward to Steve's book then I can pinch his sparring and training systems and add them to my web. |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 17, 2011 23:28:50 GMT
Read an interesting bit of info today: Apparently the American Government commissioned some research in order to 'evaluate' from CCTV footage and written records, exactly what happens when fights erupt, in order for them to decide upon the content of future training programs for the Police, FBI etc.
Tyhe research is alleged to have concluded that:
'IN 90% of fight situations it ends up with combatants on the floor within 12 seconds!'
and thus Training programs are being adjusted to include these statistics in mind.
I cannot verify the info (yet) but it has been published with no apparant challenge for accuracy or validity.
worth consideration methinks!!
|
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Aug 18, 2011 0:11:30 GMT
Unless there is clear documentation, I don't believe things like that.
|
|
|
|
Post by tomobrien on Aug 18, 2011 2:30:06 GMT
Gotta do it all - stand-up & ground but if your'e in a bar you better try to stay off the floor. Last night - 3&1/2 mins. jump rope, pull-ups, stretching, leg extensions, sweeps (from the mount), guard, arm-bar (juji gatame), kimura & BJJ style rollin - got caught in a guillotine  but executed an upside down arm-bar (juji gatame) 1st time I got it upside down ROMR! Thanks, Tom |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 18, 2011 8:15:24 GMT
Gotta do it all - stand-up & ground but if your'e in a bar you better try to stay off the floor. Last night - 3&1/2 mins. jump rope, pull-ups, stretching, leg extensions, sweeps (from the mount), guard, arm-bar (juji gatame), kimura & BJJ style rollin - got caught in a guillotine but executed an upside down arm-bar (juji gatame) 1st time I got it upside down ROMR! Thanks, Tom All part of the web Tom |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 19, 2011 1:48:29 GMT
Unless there is clear documentation, I don't believe things like that. Neil - reread my post yer numpty |
|
|
|
Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 19, 2011 7:19:10 GMT
Read an interesting bit of info today: Apparently the American Government commissioned some research in order to 'evaluate' from CCTV footage and written records, exactly what happens when fights erupt, in order for them to decide upon the content of future training programs for the Police, FBI etc. Tyhe research is alleged to have concluded that: 'IN 90% of fight situations it ends up with combatants on the floor within 12 seconds!' and thus Training programs are being adjusted to include these statistics in mind. I cannot verify the info (yet) but it has been published with no apparant challenge for accuracy or validity. worth consideration methinks!! steve, I read somewhere that this research was done for LA police department(I could me mistaken though).The 90% or whatever the figure they come up with, is because cops do wrestle villains to the ground most of the time.They cannot kick or strike someone because of the juridical consequences (they want to neutralize someone rather than kick him unconscious).You had years of "real"experience"working on the doors.Could you share your thoughts on these figures or what your personal experience was ? or other forum members with real life experience..feel free to share your thoughts on this.I'm just a newbie when it comes to real fights.(I only have been once in a serious fight which was more than enough for me thank you very much ).It surely didn't end on the floor..well except for the other fella when he was lying on theconcrete with his nose broken and him counting stars ;D (*that's what happens when you try to break a beer bottle and try to shove it in someone's face*) |
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Aug 19, 2011 10:05:34 GMT
Read an interesting bit of info today: Apparently the American Government commissioned some research in order to 'evaluate' from CCTV footage and written records, exactly what happens when fights erupt, in order for them to decide upon the content of future training programs for the Police, FBI etc. Tyhe research is alleged to have concluded that: 'IN 90% of fight situations it ends up with combatants on the floor within 12 seconds!' and thus Training programs are being adjusted to include these statistics in mind. I cannot verify the info (yet) but it has been published with no apparant challenge for accuracy or validity. worth consideration methinks!! steve, I read somewhere that this research was done for LA police department(I could me mistaken though).The 90% or whatever the figure they come up with, is because cops do wrestle villains to the ground most of the time.They cannot kick or strike someone because of the juridical consequences (they want to neutralize someone rather than kick him unconscious).You had years of "real"experience"working on the doors.Could you share your thoughts on these figures or what your personal experience was ? or other forum members with real life experience..feel free to share your thoughts on this.I'm just a newbie when it comes to real fights.(I only have been once in a serious fight which was more than enough for me thank you very much ).It surely didn't end on the floor..well except for the other fella when he was lying on theconcrete with his nose broken and him counting stars ;D (*that's what happens when you try to break a beer bottle and try to shove it in someone's face*) I can second Guy on that note - to quote from www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=6888: |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 19, 2011 10:36:37 GMT
Yip don't try and win the fight...........usually pull my guys up when it all ends up 'floor grappley' and ask them ''how the hell did you get there''  Usually too competitive.....= get back to strategy of fight to escape. |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 27, 2011 22:26:12 GMT
Well guys - speaking purely from actual experience I can tell you I have witnessed a lot of fights and my actual sight of these fights, in a wide variety of circumstances does echo that an extremely high proportion (if not finished quickly or broken up) DO go - initial interaction (blows etc) grappling and to the floor VERY QUICKLY! Of course believe what you wish - I'll believe what I have seen first hand. Heard a great quote on an Ad for a new TV series starting on UK TV: 'Intelligence gathering is about finding the truth. It is not about confirming what we have decided to believe!' |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 28, 2011 18:58:47 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Aug 28, 2011 19:07:44 GMT
End up on the ground then LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Aug 31, 2011 6:20:48 GMT
End up on the ground then LOL! I don't ignore the ground...........just there are times when we need to work on other facet's I all of your encounters how often did you end up on the floor. |
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 31, 2011 10:29:04 GMT
Andrew, I have unfortunately had more than my fair share of "encounters" and out of all of them 2 went to the ground and in one I was attacked by his mate whilst dealing with my primary assailant. Ground work is essential but dont believe the hype!
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Sept 1, 2011 17:19:33 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Sept 1, 2011 19:02:22 GMT
Tom & Steve thanks for your answers on ground work. Was kinda the answers that I was expecting. Which a tiny wee bit goes along with my strategy of training to stay off the ground. Like you guys non of my altercations have ended up on the floor however it nearly happened once when I was taken by surprise.......................
We do occasionally train in tactics to 'get up' from the floor if it all goes to custard.
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Sept 1, 2011 23:44:01 GMT
Tom & Steve thanks for your answers on ground work. Was kinda the answers that I was expecting. Which a tiny wee bit goes along with my strategy of training to stay off the ground. Like you guys non of my altercations have ended up on the floor however it nearly happened once when I was taken by surprise....................... We do occasionally train in tactics to 'get up' from the floor if it all goes to custard. Andy - from posts and PM's I think your on the right path with what your doing - and remember that the research has been to try and train Police etc so THEY DON'T go to the ground! NOTHING is infallible but learning to stay on your feet is possible - I assure you for a great deal of the time! . I very recently was teaching a group how to escape from being pulled over into a bent position. I asked for a volunteer and a very fit, very strong , very experienced Karateka came forward. I hit him 1/3 power on the thigh and he literally spasmed, leapt upwards and then fell in a heap! he later told me it was 'Astonishing and like lightning/electricity going through him!' - sometimes it is WHAT YOU KNOW! |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Sept 11, 2011 2:23:30 GMT
Was having a bit of a play with sparring rotations the other week and stumbled on this. Now although this way is new to me it may be old hat for some of you guys bit I'll share it anyway.
Quite often I have an odd number in my classes which usually ends up with somebody missing out for a while, this is usually me. = my students are more practised in my sparring methods than I am :-(
The cure, face everybody in one line (only 10 or so of us), guy at the end faces the first and attacks. He gets dealt with and moves onto the next in the opposite stance attacks again, first defender turns round and becomes an attacker and so on.....
The goal is to have the whole line sparring at the same time (my version of ippon kumite) the odd person only has to wait for one ttack before he gets his chance again. Advantage is that the next attack is form somebody different, you get to spar with everybody, dead 'chat about it' time is kept at a minimum which keeps the stress levels up.
Try it have fun
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Sept 11, 2011 2:31:56 GMT
Spot on - not knew to some of us but re - invented by you and a great exercise. To help you know how 'spot on' you are Ticky Donovan used similar to train the British Team that won the world Champs. Great way to train both sides of yer body whilst under pressure from Various opponents |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Sept 11, 2011 2:36:34 GMT
Nowt new in karate...........just reinvention Found some of 'my' sparring methods on a wado clip of all places (after the fact). Great minds think alike or fools seldom differ?? Not exactly the same but close www.visioi.net/33 |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Sept 11, 2011 2:46:16 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 11, 2011 16:08:15 GMT
We regularly use the above "single file " method and the circle with one person in the middle> Another good variation of this is to have two lines of students face each other quite far apart and nominate one student to step out and turn their backs. The instructor then nominates the attackers from each side. The student is then invited to walk between the lines, blocking and countering when attacked. Sharpens reflexes and helps with zanshin.
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Sept 12, 2011 13:39:02 GMT
We regularly use the above "single file " method and the circle with one person in the middle> Another good variation of this is to have two lines of students face each other quite far apart and nominate one student to step out and turn their backs. The instructor then nominates the attackers from each side. The student is then invited to walk between the lines, blocking and countering when attacked. Sharpens reflexes and helps with zanshin. Also brillaint for getting to the front of the queue in ASDA JIM. Only Joking a great training drill. |
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Sept 12, 2011 19:03:45 GMT
We use ''the circle of death'' method as well. Occasionally we also put everybody in the circle and have a free for all at getting everybody else out. That one is fun |
|
but executed an upside down arm-bar (juji gatame) 1st time I got it upside down ROMR! 
Usually too competitive.....= get back to strategy of fight to escape.