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Post by grunners4 on Sept 2, 2011 9:50:38 GMT
My votes are biased to what I've been doing recently, but it varies over time. Also spent some time recently on Junro Shodan and Nidan. This is a thought that struck me in the previous thread: What do you want to achieve by concentrating on a certain kata and can we have a data bank for this (e.g. if you are wanting to improve balance then Gankaku may be a good choice or if you want to concentrate on hip movement then Empi). It would be interesting to hear different reasons for training certain kata from a technical point of view. Thanks
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 3, 2011 14:45:17 GMT
excellent point Andrew. I would suggest Bassai Dai to learn different forms of Kime. Heain Yondan to help Kyu grades learn basic flow! lots of others though but lets hear what others advise! excellent thread IMHO!
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Post by Dave Gallagher on Sept 3, 2011 16:30:12 GMT
If I had to pick only one kata that helped in a good number of ways I would suggest this one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EniepudbBygNijushiho features a number of directions (24 according to the title) balance, shifting and breath control at the end. This remains my favorite kata. I beleive that Shotokan kata feature everything you will ever need in karate. If properly learned from a good instructor you will never need useless bunkai. A well trained karateka understands quite well what is going on in the kata. After 36 years in and out and in training I believe that the bunkai is a waste of time for the well trained person. The real essence of karate is contained in kata. Shifting, turning, timing, kime, techniques in combination etc etc. Give he Heian Shodan, Bassai Dai etc etc and I am a happy guy. All of this is of course just my opinion alone. I still do what sensei tells me to do and I keep these opinions to myself in the dojo.
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Post by kensei on Sept 3, 2011 17:28:35 GMT
When I first started in Karate I did not know what Bunkai was...
When I had trained for a decade I was convinced that the bunkai I was taught was correct and I taught it back.....
When I had trained in Karate for two decades I knew the bunkai I was taught was flawed and searched for a better why and the true bunkai....
I have trained for three decades ( and a bit) and now I realize that bunkai is not important, its not the key element of trianing! Its the body dynamics, the learned movements and the ability to use the body in a different way. Take from Kata the applications of the body movements...dont look at it as a "if attacker A does move C, replay with move H".
The sad part is it took me more than 3 decades to realize this...I will never teach my students strict bunkai because it is only a suggestion of an application. the intent and learned body movements are far more important.
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 3, 2011 20:30:48 GMT
If I had to pick only one kata that helped in a good number of ways I would suggest this one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EniepudbBygNijushiho features a number of directions (24 according to the title) balance, shifting and breath control at the end. This remains my favorite kata. I beleive that Shotokan kata feature everything you will ever need in karate. If properly learned from a good instructor you will never need useless bunkai. A well trained karateka understands quite well what is going on in the kata. After 36 years in and out and in training I believe that the bunkai is a waste of time for the well trained person. The real essence of karate is contained in kata. Shifting, turning, timing, kime, techniques in combination etc etc. Give he Heian Shodan, Bassai Dai etc etc and I am a happy guy. All of this is of course just my opinion alone. I still do what sensei tells me to do and I keep these opinions to myself in the dojo. oh dear I am about to upset some people starting with David! sorry!!! David unless i am totally misunderstanding you I have to say 'How can you possibly hold what you claim? Please show me any Karateka EVER who learnt from Kata without learning what it might imply and to be honest show me any Kata only study that would teach you how to fight? Sorry!'
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Post by Dave Gallagher on Sept 3, 2011 21:22:25 GMT
Quote:
"David unless i am totally misunderstanding you"
.... Yes you are. I did not say that the karateka would learn only kata. I said "A well trained karateka understands quite well what is going on in the kata". I also said "The real essence of karate is contained in kata. Shifting, turning, timing, kime, techniques in combination etc etc". I never said that kata would be the only thing he learns. I was talking about "a well trained karateka". This training includes basics, kumite etc. It is just that I have seen entire advanced classes devoted to bunkai when everyone in the class has understood it for years. I have seen it included in rank exams. I have seen guest instructors teach great variations on the bunkai because they learned from an instructor who had different ideas. Because few dojos do it the same, because it can have too many variations and still be correct etc I find it to be interesting and sometimes fun but not necessary for the well trained and educated karateka. It does come in handy for public demos so that the audience can see an example of the application of the kate technique. A student picks up the idea through one and three step sparring etc.. It's usefullness, or lack of, is just my opinion.
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Post by nathanso on Sept 5, 2011 4:53:07 GMT
I guess it depends on what you think a "well-trained" karate-ka has been doing in their training. IMO, the classical way that I learned basic 5-, 3- and 1-step kumite teaches bad habits unless combined with training in tai-sabaki, di-ai, etc., Similarly, while I agree that "useless bunkai' is indeed useless, kata that is taught simply as a combination of basics or as an extension of defenses against standard jiyu kumite techniques is missing one of the most important aspects of karate.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 5, 2011 11:20:29 GMT
Oh dear ! Useless Bunkai? Who makes the judgement ? The only useless Bunkai is that performed at the wrong distance, a well trained karate-ka should be able to make an informed decision as to what is patently non-sense but you cannot assume he will be able to discern the bunkai of a kata by a process of osmosis! What is a well trained karate-ka? Well trained for what, a clubs focus maybe on tournament kumite and be well trained for that or kata for arts sake, and be well trained for that. the classical way was not to focus on the 3 Ks but to incorporate real and applicable techniques, tested in combat and recognisable today as just as workable as they were then. Learn the lessons that the kata teach and then decide which lesson you want to concentrate on today. That is how I approach it and I find it speeds up the learning process for my students too. Tai-sabaki, ma-ai etc are all there in kata. If we teach kata correctly we cannot fail to teach these lessons either surely?
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Post by Dave Gallagher on Sept 5, 2011 12:12:19 GMT
It is looking like my comment has hijacked this thread away from the original question for which I am sorry. A well trained person will have been told the application of each technique of the kata he is learning as he is learning it. Because of the way it is mistaught by some misinterpited by others and each bit is not set in stone, makes it interesting but not necessary for gradings, competition etc. You may have noticed that a number of organisations do not really teach bunkai as a part of class time but have demonstrated a clear understanding of it. The JKA comes to mind first. But as I said this is just my opinion. YMMV.
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Post by grunners4 on Sept 5, 2011 15:31:47 GMT
Dave what did you do?!??! can, open, worms all over the place!!! Conversation is conversation and we go where it leads - however we could perhaps open up another thread. To get back to this thread -We so far have: Heian Yondan: basic flow Bassai dai: different forms of kime Empi: hip rotation, Gankaku: balance
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 5, 2011 18:24:44 GMT
This is beauty of having of having such a diverse range of kata to pick from. There is pretty well something for everybody. Personally I like the Heians as a good way to warm up & Sochin seems to feel good on my old knees. Of course I enjoy most of the kata, but these at the moment are my choice kata.. Osu Paul B
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Post by Dave Gallagher on Sept 6, 2011 0:59:05 GMT
Am I crazy to still love to perform Heian Shodan after 35+ years?
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Post by nathanso on Sept 6, 2011 6:00:53 GMT
Oh dear ! Useless Bunkai? Who makes the judgement ? The only useless Bunkai is that performed at the wrong distance.... I suppose that useless bunkai is in the eye of the beholder. Take the third move of H1. I have heard many people say that you are turning 180° and blocking a front kick from an attacker from behind. One can indeed demonstrate that and have it "work" with the appropriate distancing. In fact, I think that it is fine to use that explanation when teaching the kata to a beginner as an example of what the mechanics of the move looks like. However, it is silly as an explanation of what one would most likely use that movement for. I'd probably say the same thing about any kata move which "looks like" you are catching a bo.
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 6, 2011 10:03:31 GMT
No, some are genuinely useless I have no problem with the "easy" bunkai used as a teaching/visualisation aid for the beginner (or even more advanced), they may not be practical or what you'd do in the real world but they serve a purpose and as such are not useless. However, I have seen some bunkai taught by very senior people to senior students in more advanced kata (Nijushiho again, a kata particularly known for relatively easy "debugging") which were patently absurd, did nothing to aid understanding or practicality, required a tortuous approach (both by the attacker and the defender) to make work but had to be done in order to adhere to the fact that every attack above the waist is either oi or gyaku tsuki and every movement of the arms that isn't a punch is a block against one of these two attacks, (total b*llocks!!!). These I would refer to as "useless", (on one of my more polite days )
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Post by tomobrien on Sept 7, 2011 1:08:43 GMT
Am I crazy to still love to perform Heian Shodan after 35+ years? Dave - that makes 2 of us Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 7, 2011 16:45:13 GMT
Quote: "David unless i am totally misunderstanding you" .... Yes you are. I did not say that the karateka would learn only kata. I said "A well trained karateka understands quite well what is going on in the kata". I also said "The real essence of karate is contained in kata. Shifting, turning, timing, kime, techniques in combination etc etc". I never said that kata would be the only thing he learns. I was talking about "a well trained karateka". This training includes basics, kumite etc. It is just that I have seen entire advanced classes devoted to bunkai when everyone in the class has understood it for years. I have seen it included in rank exams. I have seen guest instructors teach great variations on the bunkai because they learned from an instructor who had different ideas. Because few dojos do it the same, because it can have too many variations and still be correct etc I find it to be interesting and sometimes fun but not necessary for the well trained and educated karateka. It does come in handy for public demos so that the audience can see an example of the application of the kate technique. A student picks up the idea through one and three step sparring etc.. It's usefullness, or lack of, is just my opinion. Apologies Dave, been very busy so dipping in and out and hadn't spooted your response Thanks for clarification and I agree with and understand (better now) your points. Most seasomned Karateka, especially if they have some experience of other styles and better still real (not thoeretical) SD, can come up with sound Kata Implications. It is also far more interesting to train with an Instructor who 'thinks outside the norm'. A joy in fact!
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Post by vitruvius on Sept 27, 2011 13:23:30 GMT
I'm really enjoying this thread and thought I would add to it.
To me, Heian Shodan had always been a great kata that introduces us to proper balance and foot work. Although all katas demonstrate this, we first experience it with this basic yet complicated form.
It's always a challenge to try and execute perfect stance as well, as you try to maintain rhythm throughout. Not to mention a great throwing technique as you execute the last age uke with kiai and turn 270 degrees with gedan barai.
After doing this kata for a few years, other good points have been discovered such as the ability to execute a much quicker and more efficient hammer fist if you stay relaxed with minimal tension and let your fist be a pendulum as you rotate and "whip" the technique.
Any other thoughts on what Heian Shodan has done for you?
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 27, 2011 22:51:58 GMT
Was at an antique and collectable book sale today. bought a book by a very well respected Karateka (non japanese) were he waxes lyrical for a need to know how the human body works and how Karateka should know and follow this in their training! then he shows supposedly demonstrative photos that are totally wrong in the human locomotion dynamics and foot, ankle, knee etc usage - good grief!
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