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Post by fujicolt on Sept 10, 2011 15:10:13 GMT
THE NEW THREAD AS PROMISED IN THE 'FUN QUIZ FOR SEPTEMBER SECTION. ( I suggest you read that thread first and then return to discuss here - HOPEFULLY all will become clear I had a phone call about this thread this morning and I was asked: 'Jeez Steve have you been knocking the 'Friendship Course' students about?' I wish to make the following very clear - the strikes I demonstrated were performed at about 25% of thier actual impact potential. Yes they did immediately have a profound effect on the recievers of the strikes ( ) even at this much lower impact, BUT_ 1. .They DID NOT cause permanant injury or damage. Each recipient of the strikes had volunteered and/or even asked me to show them the impact potential of these (for them) previously unseen techniques. 2. Each of the recipients where very fit and strong Karateka with huge personal Karate experience and knowledge that I know personally. Therefore, I was fully aware that they were used to impact as part of thier general long term training. Yes - each of them were shocked by the potential damage that the techniques COULD deliver due to the shock of the impact and resulting effect even at 25% power and this immediately helped them understand the SD value of the techniques that, when merely performed in mid air, do not portray thier ferocity and potential to dispatch an adversary immediately even if the adversary is strong and normally able to 'take a hit' 3. I was asked by Eve Martinez to demonstrate the techniques upon her. Now Eve is a fine and courageous/spirited Karateka BUT she is also very small of frame and therefore, even at 25% impact I simply could not risk the potential bone fracture and other injuries these techniques WILL deliver and therefore (with not a little complaining from Brave Eve I must add) I had to respectfully refuse to do so. Karate IS a martial art and sometimes we need to know and FEEL what the effects of the techniques we practice are. However, I deplore the heavy, uncontrolled impact some ( ) Instructors will reign upon students (often without any pre-enquiry as to the health and well being of the student - who may have an injury or other health matter that is NOT easily visible or obvious or any enquiry as to the students willingness to be the recipient of a blow that potentially can do considerable harm - WE ALL have to work etc the next day!! Such conduct is IMHO bullying, cowardly and potentially unlawful and should not be an aspect of even the most physically robust Karate Training. Also it is my belief that all Karateka should train themselves to have the ability to (under lawful and prejudged circumstances - even if that prejudgment has to be very fast! ) to be able to decisively despatch an adversary that illegally places them or thier loved ones etc at immenent and genuinely percieved risk of harm. Therefore, we ALL need to know the potential of the 'WEAPON' we choose to deploy in such dire (and hopefully never occuring) circumstances. I believe Balance is the Key and I would be mortified if anyone formed an opinion that my demonstrations of the potential of (what were for some students) previously unknown or un practiced techniques was in anyway inappropriate. The Friendship Course Students have been some of the most inspiring students I have ever had the opportunity and honour to teach I would never take a cheap shot or be overly physical in my role as thier teacher or mentor. it would be interesting to hear comments on this aspect of Karate from other forum members - especially the recipiwents of my demonstrated strikes etc. So as NOT to distract from the FUN QUIZ - I have started this new thread to discuss this matter. Thanks in advance OSU! Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=quiz&action=display&thread=633#ixzz1XYwIdDYO
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 10, 2011 19:53:26 GMT
Jeez Steve, sorry if I opened a can of worms (did people not see the smiley faces?) From my own point of view, did I step up to take a hit of my own free will, well and truly!! This is not down to some masochistic tendency on my part but a genuine desire to learn. If someone on these courses is built to be able to take the occasional whack for demonstration purposes then it's me, despite the fact that I'm getting a little old and frail these days (PLEASE NOTE THE SMILEY FACE) and I stepped up entirely by my own choice, (and not for the first time so I was not unaware) BUT with absolute confidence that it would be done to a "level" and no more. It showed very well to the rest of the group the potential of the technique and gave me a good understanding of not only the potential but also pause for thought in the overconfidence of the "big guy" in a confrontational situation against a trained opponent. Did it hurt, not so much at the time, but the shock factor was terrific (an excellent technique and one I'll be studying all the harder now that I really understand) and I think that showed for the rest of the group far better than an hour's theoretical practice. Do I still have a tender spot, of course but I'm studying karate FFS! It's not the first and it won't be the last and if I can't take a whack and carry on then what's the point? Is it for everybody? probably not but in that case don't volunteer. I made my own choice being fully aware of the consequences and if there was another course tomorrow I'd no doubt do exactly the same thing. That doesn't mean that I'm in favour of beating up students as a matter of course, (far from it), I think such behavior is to been seen exactly for what it is. If there was any doubt about whether Steve's courses were in any way "abusive" do people really think that many of us would be traveling hundreds of miles, time and again, just to train with him? or that people would be queuing up waiting for the next opportunity to do it all again? Does it also mean that I'm some sort of "hard man nut job" with something to prove, again nothing could be further from the truth, when it comes down to it I'm about as hard as the Andrex puppy (and this is just a fact, NOT irony!) but I'd rather learn the actualities of the art I've decided to study in a safe and controlled environment and (in my own opinion obviously) this is part of it. To put things into perspective, I continued with another 8-9 hours of training past this demonstration so it was in no way disabling (or even something I gave any thought to for the rest of the course).
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Post by superjock on Sept 11, 2011 3:35:17 GMT
Karate world gone soft or what?? You should always be the first up to be demonstrated on. You do need t feel the technique to have the confidence that what you are practising will do the job should it be required. If Steve was a bully, the friendship course would have to be renamed the 'Johnny no-friends' course One underlying rule I have for all my students is only hit as hard as you want to be hit. This rule applies to everybody no matter how important they may be. I quite often let my guys try out e technique on me (as many times as it takes) after I have demonstrated on them.
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 11, 2011 15:04:43 GMT
Whilst we are on the subject of impact in class, how do other people introduce impact to their students? (if, in fact, they do). My class is predominantly children so I don't consider student to student (or instructor to student) impact appropriate. What I tend to do is to use myself as a target for punching in line, (can be challenging when there are adults in the line but hey ho both because it gives me the ideal situation to judge and correct form and it also gets them over their nervousness about hitting someone, everybody is happy to punch me (which says a lot I suppose ). From a receiving impact point of view I introduce them to pad work from day one and everybody gets a chance to hold the pad and as such starts to get some idea of being on the receiving end (I'll always stay behind the pad holder for support if necessary as I have some big lumps of lads who are starting to get some "poke" now). I suspect that's as far as I'll take it with them at present but I'm just starting to get students into my adult only class now and will (at some stage) be looking to take it further. You'd think I could just follow what I'd been taught coming up the line but I'm pretty much the only instructor in our group who does any regular impact/pad work at all.
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 11, 2011 15:44:48 GMT
Strongly recomend (if the Hall owners will allow it) a Punch Bag (medium weight) and would you believe I have an excellent Steel Punch Bag Wall Mount for sale LOL! Gis a call Bob - you can 'borrow it' indefinitely. Make sure the children wear good quality (correct size) Bag mits to ensure no bone fracture or compression injuries) - and spend time getting them to understand wrist and Fist alignment. ALWAYS supervise any impact work. If you give us a call and tell me what equipment you have I'll write you out a 'circuit' (similar to what we did at the last FC) for them. OSU!
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Post by tomobrien on Sept 15, 2011 1:58:51 GMT
After all is said & done & the rubber hits the road, there is only one way to learn how to fight Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 15, 2011 11:16:36 GMT
After all is said & done & the rubber hits the road, there is only one way to learn how to fight Thanks, Tom If anyone knows the reality of getting hit our Tom does = 127 yrs old and still mixing it up with MMA, Ju Jitsu, Judo and All Styles tourneys! RESPECT! yer mad old fool!!
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Post by fleur on Sept 16, 2011 20:06:35 GMT
Children do focus mitt impact work only. They love it. In our Adult class we do a lot of controlled impact partner work. Which is for conditioning. It does teach you to take a hit and not freak and it is in a controlled environment that you know whats coming and can prepare your body for the impact. Here is a link from our site to give you a sample of controlled impact work. Basically we do all our kihon with a partner. While we still do some 'punching air' as part of our warm up, all techniques are later put into practise on a real body so we can feel exactly how our technique works. www.karate-kobudo.co.nz/conpt2.htmlThere is a lot more partner work videos on the site if you want to have a look, but I thought this one demontrated a variety that gives you a general idea. And impact force is determined by the partners to ensure it is at a level that is workable.
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Post by kensei on Sept 19, 2011 12:52:48 GMT
I have kicking sheilds, Thai pads, Coach mits, Kick paddles, a mobile makiwara in my house and a heavy bag...and I still find time to wack a student around once and a while. ;D Seriously, years ago I started formulating a "Impact rule" when I teach, and I am very clear on it when I go and teach at different clubs. Kids white to green...No hitting, soft blocking...like deflections no hard smacks. Kids Purple to 2nd kyu need more power in blocking but still no impact in punching. Brown belt kids 2nd and 1st kyu a little light contact when punching and focus on still deflecting with blocks...but with control and not smashing. Adults white to green, no hitting! not during blocking nor during punching. However the punches should all come close, and by close I mean one to two inches. Adults Purple belts, a bit of pep in blocking but not smashing, punching still just close. Adult brown belts, some impact in punching, light and controlled and blocking needs to be effective...so a bit of snap their as well. Kids black belts....I dont believe they exist in reality so I have no rules for them. A child who is wearing a black belt is a brown belt with experience to me....ergo same rules. Adult black belts.....medium impact in punching and controlled but forcefull blocking. The reason I made these "rules" (and trust me they are often a lot harder punches than most think) is becaue kids bodies can not take the punishment and adults tend to over do it anyways. Blocking is VERY dangerous if done to hard, especially early on, way to many elbows being battered to begin with, so a lighter block may...I pray....lead to better form and thus to bettr blocking in the end. as far as hitting objects...only restrictions are softer targets for younger people, I try and get everyone to come to my dojo in my basement and hit the makiwara...and let me hit them....er...no one tell them about that last part eh!
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 19, 2011 17:36:50 GMT
Get your point about kids - especially with the H&S police these days but i differ with adults. close supervision but contact from the get go. It is a martial art and IMHO adults who indulge should do so from the get go with the knowledge that you need to 'KNOW@ the potential of what you do from the outset. This need not mean undue injury (bumps and bruises are part of it - Like rugby for example). With correct direction and supervision from the Instructor it can be made safe and incremental. I have never in all these years had a Lower grade student injured to any serious extent other than some soon to heal bruising. Maybe the rules are different for you James. But have to admit here in the UK many clubs have now resorted to a NO contact philosophy and it does IMHO produce Karateka with a very false illusion in regard to thier abilities ! You will often see them at courses (or when visitors from a more robust club arrive) and the first time they get any kind of a knock they fall to bits and this is the Dan grades. Tghe Kyu grades are simply overwhelmed . I refer to adults here. I am sure i am not alone in seeing this.
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Post by kensei on Sept 20, 2011 18:27:05 GMT
I wish we could go at it from the get go and give them and get our lumps, however Canada suffers from being far to close the litigation crazy Yanks! We tend to play it safer because we see the down side of being sued!
Granted never happened yet, but thats all I need is one set of charges or a letter to visit the courts!
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 21, 2011 1:32:05 GMT
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Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 21, 2011 15:55:34 GMT
Sadly these days the only students I get to hit with anything like decent impact are my son and my brother-in-law! The adults complain more than the kids I find. Lots of pad work and emphasis on sundome otherwise. Ahh the good old days of battering miners till one of us bled. Thats Miners not Minors by the way Steve!
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Post by grunners4 on Sept 22, 2011 12:28:21 GMT
Thought it ironic, was reading through the thread last night after training - sitting on my couch with an ice pack against the head, prepping some of the guys for sandan grading was fun
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 22, 2011 16:03:21 GMT
Thought it ironic, was reading through the thread last night after training - sitting on my couch with an ice pack against the head, prepping some of the guys for sandan grading was fun We bleed for our Art !
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Post by grunners4 on Oct 3, 2011 14:32:38 GMT
Do any of you still have "Catchers " whose job it was at the start of kumite to protect the windows/mirrors from someone crashing through them? Haven't seen that in a while... I wonder if its from a lack of impact or less windows/mirrors
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 3, 2011 15:23:20 GMT
remember them well - now too much H & S
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Post by andyupton on Oct 3, 2011 16:19:13 GMT
I remember when, if you didn't go home having been battered, with bruises on your forearms through Soto Uke practice - you haven't had a decent session ! Those were the days !
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 3, 2011 18:43:51 GMT
When (and how) did it all change? In the scheme of things I haven't been training that long (13 years) but when I started I was covered in lumps and bruises all the time, a "batterting" was part of weekly training but now it hardly ever happens. I hear that "people won't train that way anymore" but who decided that, a lot of the people who now seem reluctant to train that way are still the same people I started with. Personally (despite the fuss I make if someone whacks me ) I like to have something to show for a good training session.
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 5, 2011 14:50:44 GMT
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 7, 2011 23:52:50 GMT
I cannot get adults to join never mind take a beating. I am lucky in that a select few are happy to mix it up but generally speaking it is true, people simply wont accept it any more. We were once a nation of warriors, we have become a nation of office boys and most people are happy to get their thrills vicariously through on-line games than take a risk of raising a bruise.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 7, 2011 23:53:27 GMT
I cannot get adults to join never mind take a beating. I am lucky in that a select few are happy to mix it up but generally speaking it is true, people simply wont accept it any more. We were once a nation of warriors, we have become a nation of office boys and most people are happy to get their thrills vicariously through on-line games than take a risk of raising a bruise.
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 8, 2011 11:55:34 GMT
I cannot get adults to join never mind take a beating. I am lucky in that a select few are happy to mix it up but generally speaking it is true, people simply wont accept it any more. We were once a nation of warriors, we have become a nation of office boys and most people are happy to get their thrills vicariously through on-line games than take a risk of raising a bruise. Sadly so very true Jim! I have noticed when travelling to teach it is often the 40 and over students who enjoy a 'robust' session and the young Dan grades with the badges, tailored Gi's and obligatory JKA OBI that look out of depth!
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Post by andyupton on Oct 8, 2011 16:23:30 GMT
Do any of you still have "Catchers " whose job it was at the start of kumite to protect the windows/mirrors from someone crashing through them? Haven't seen that in a while... I wonder if its from a lack of impact or less windows/mirrors When I joined Wirral Shotokan KC in 1980 at the Birkenhead YMCA, we had Catchers for the Kumite practice, but sometimes they missed and we went crashing through the fire doors into the street !! lol
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