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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 21, 2011 10:49:11 GMT
I'm trying an experiment at present with one of my students.
I have a dojo that was up until recently just for the private use of myself and my son but was approached by a beginner who wanted to come along and train. We'd been toying with the idea of opening it up so I said ok (we'll start promoting it later on, it's on the "to do" list).
Anyway, back to the subject, rather than trying to teach him in the normal "line up, do this, repeat and repeat" way of a class with many students I'm taking the time with him to explain the full detail of everything he's trying to do in even the most basic of movements, not only the what and how but the why (and why it's important) and he has free range to stop and ask any question at any time. He's in education himself so understands and appreciates what I'm trying to do with him (and seems to be really enjoying it) but I see him struggling with every move as he's trying to think through everything I've given him (I do occasionally just run him up and down the hall without time to think just to give him a break and a workout).
My feeling (and hope) is that, whilst he is not getting something that "looks" like karate quite as quickly as the average beginner that this approach will pay big dividends for him in the longer term as it all start to come together.
Comments?
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Post by grunners4 on Oct 21, 2011 11:45:21 GMT
Bob this is brilliant! I personally feel that this is how training should be - one to one. It means that the art gets to fit the practitioner and NOT the other way around. Also, the thinking things through bit is probably again just down to his learning style and being in education he would probably have a lot of questions anyway. If I could suggest making it as practical as possible, here you have the opportunity to really drill the implications of techniques and for him to understand why he is doing something a certain way and not just by rote. Also, allow him to take part in your own training with your son, this will give him a 'roadmap' to see where he is headed. Personally feel that the learning curve might be different to your average 'pack them' in class, but I feel that the learning will be that much more concrete. Excellent, am excited to see where this goes! Keep us up to date!
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Post by kensei on Oct 21, 2011 15:02:31 GMT
Hey Bob,
Being raised in Karate the traditional.."Dont think...do" kind of way and then being introduced to the "now thinK it through" kind of learning I have to say that your approach is novel.
I am not sure it will seem to help at first, slowing down the learning curve. But the upside is that even if the student is over thinking and slowing down...It will impart more early on, his learning curve will slowly catch up and surpase those that just do.
Keep us informed of how it is going, its an interesting approach that not many get to try out.
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Post by fightingwills on Oct 28, 2011 11:38:58 GMT
Hi there
I have tried this model, several times over the years and each time it has failed. After the last time I had to really think about why (the first few times I blamed the student for them leaving!)
I think back to when I started and the 'doing' was the magical bit. If my instructor was to replace the 'doing' with talking or explanations, I think I would of lost interest. Which is what I think happened?
I think most of the 'Revelation' moments in martial arts coming from the individual not the teacher. When you are in your bedroom searching for a 'feeling'. I cannot see much benefit from being told what is supposed to happen - I want that magical moment for myself in my own time at my own pace.
Or own karate was not like this and we are at a different place in our training we cannot forget the process that brought us here. I think we can forget this sometimes.
In my own experience - the students I applied this model too, were very keen and enthusiastic right up until the point they left (and it broke my heart as they learnt much quicker than the 'up and downers')
And my final point - this is YOUR perspective of why. I'm sure a valued perpsective - but only one. My instructor told me little so I had a hunger to open books, ask questions, go on courses, etc, etc
One thing I notice now as I write this - those student (in my case) didn't like courses or borrow DVDs from me. I remember asking one after a course with a senior instructor "Did you enjoy that" - I honestly thought he would say yes!
Instead to my shock - he said "It was okay." I remember the exact words and the next part is not so exact so forgive me for paraphrasing. "It is not as good as what you teach"
Maybe this is different - Maybe it was me. But I remember the journey that I took to get here and wish I applied that to all the students
(My retention is >85% with over the 60 members that started 1 year ago - I only started keeping records 13 months ago)
Thanks for reading
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Post by kensei on Oct 28, 2011 12:47:41 GMT
I am thinking their is a very large difference between guiding a student with the odd comment during a work out, giving a 5 minute speach on an important point....and a class filled with lectures and break downs. A good mix is important and like Fightingwills said, most of our "ah ha" moments come from actually doing the Karate. I guess if we all wanted to hear about Karate we would just watch a video or lecture, but we strap on our white PJ's and belt and hope that we get a work out and actually learn sumptin!
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 28, 2011 16:53:19 GMT
It's all about balance I suppose but I'll stick with it and see how it goes. I've already started to give him a little more action a little less conversation but still on the basis that we can break down and discuss the whys and wherefores as questions occur to him BUT ( from my point of view) he has enough to work on for now before we move on.
I had one of our blackbelts for another dojo visit for some extra training last session (we have a senior grading coming up) so our beginner was outnumbered 3 to 1 and got exposed to a more "normal" dojo environment. I did put him on the spot both in partner work and kata and the feedback from our visitor was that he was " a lot better than you'd expect from someone at that stage of training" but I am aware that you need to put in the floor time to aquire the physical skills in any sort of natural development.
I understand that there are those little "lightbulb moments" in our training which give us that sense of achievement but I'm also not a big fan of the "just train and all will become clear", I've seen enough people with years of training who know the moves but for whom the light never came on (and probably never will).
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 28, 2011 17:05:16 GMT
But surely if it's what I'm teaching it must be right or I wouldn't be teaching it! (tongue firmly in cheek BTW ). No, I understand what you are saying BUT for every "hungry" student you get through the door (I was one myself so I know what mean) you seem to get 3 who need to be spoon fed. The thing that nearly killed it for me was the LACK of real information in dojo, if I needed to find out everything myself why would I be going to them to learn?
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 30, 2011 2:54:21 GMT
In fairness to Bob I think some of you may need to re-read his original post in this thread and also remember a couple of things. I know Bob personally and have also had the pleasure of training with him; He is a very intelligent and analytical chap whom, by his own admission often takes a while whilst he mulls over knew stuff or approaches. NOT I must add because he doesn't understand - quite the contrary! I can inform you that he is (pleasingly) one of those students who will take something away, work on it, come back ask questions to ensure what he is doing is correct, go away again and work on it and then come back and repeat that process until he comes back, doesn't mention it - becuase he is not only doing it now but has made it habitual. I am therefore confident that whatever it is he is working on with this student will have been very well structured and useful. also - he informs us that the student is an educated chap so i suspect that in unison they are making good ground that will show benefits over time. also please remember that the 'line up and drill' style of teaching is - in Karate Terms - a new innovation and is also not deemed the best approach by the sports science fraternity. Hang on in there Bob - your approach is valid and in the circumstances a totally reasonable and reasoned approach. whilst i get wills point - i think it has to be accepted that of course any instructor will teach things from his perspective BUT with a good instructor it will be a perspective drawn from long personal research and study and this will include hearing, seeing and examining the perspective of other Instructors Senior (and some maybe not senior) to him/her Private lessons can be immensely benificial and I am confident that your 'why's' are based on your extensive study and thus far that form 'your perspective'. All good teacher's have a wide perspective that thus gives them the knowledge and skills required - they wouldn't be good teachers if that were not the case - in fact isolation of thought has created a lot of the mess we see represented as shotokan karate IMHO. Great to see yer joining in though Will - you'll get used to being argued against! LOL! ;D
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Post by nathanso on Oct 30, 2011 6:29:46 GMT
A good teacher will vary both what and how he teaches to match the learning styles, abilities, and interests of his students. Like most old farts, I was mostly taught in the "shut up and train" approach. (Actually, some of the explanations that were given back then were pretty bogus.) It sounds like Bob has a good match with what this particular students both wants and can utilize.
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Post by fightingwills on Oct 30, 2011 13:27:57 GMT
Arguing is fine if it is in good humour. If I may add something - In my former life (not too long ago), I used to an OFSTED inspector (Harry Potter's Dementors of the teaching world). 'good' instructors. Its a term I hear a great deal. 'so and so is a good instructor'. In terms of teaching (if this was a P.E lesson), would you get a rating of 'good' or above? Does anybody here know what rating they would get if OFSTED were to pay them a visit? (You probably wouldn't care). We all bring our 'hobbies, interests into our karate' - mine is education. In the past two years I have done a little research into instruction - applying the OFSTED model to karate teachers (I didn't tell them - it was for me ). I have 'rated' over 100 people at the front of the class and it may suprise you what they acheived. 1: Outstanding 2: Good 3: Satisfactory 4: Unsatisfactory So (I am not being an 'arse' this is only to create debate), when you say 'good', is that because you think they are, the students think they are or education says they are? Thanks for response
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Post by nathanso on Oct 31, 2011 2:19:14 GMT
So (I am not being an 'arse' this is only to create debate), when you say 'good', is that because you think they are, the students think they are or education says they are? In my day job, I teach, evaluate other teachers, and am in turn evaluated by both students and other teachers. There are times when student and peer evaluations are similar, and times when they are very divergent. In the context of what I consider to be required for a karate instructor to be "good", I'd say off the top of my head that they need to be able to explain what and how to do things, tailor the class content to the needs, abilities, and interests of the students in a particular class, recognize how to get around an individual's limitations, vary what is taught from class to class so students stay interested and are exposed to the complete canon, and encourage students to push themselves beyond their preconceived limits.
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Post by fujicolt on Nov 1, 2011 1:55:25 GMT
Whoa Will, I don't think you are being an arse and am sure others don't. you'll find here we do debate and often disagree but we try to 'agree to disagree agreeably'. you fire away mate the input is welcomed here and we won't hold it against you too much for being an ex government 'Inspector' - at least we'll try not to HAHA!
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 1, 2011 9:49:40 GMT
Just to add my "tuppence worth" to the above as the thread instigator. I put it up there and asked for comments. All comments are welcome (not just the ones that agree) and will be taken for what they are in the spirit of debate.
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