|
|
Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 17, 2012 14:24:07 GMT
i'd like to start a thread to see if anyone has had to use they're training in a real life situation??? and if so, was it effective??? not because i like hearing about people getting beat up, as i dont, but to know how you felt when you realised you was going to be under attack and how/if your training helped you handle the situation? and how you felt AFTER the situation? although not a funny subject, im sure it could be humourous! especially if kensie has a story! lmao
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2012 14:51:05 GMT
LOL, I think between Steve and I we can write a book or two on funny Bar stories and self defense.
I used to work at a local (and by local I mean horribly run down and not the kind of place you take your sister) Bar that had at least two fights and hour for the night on the week ends...and yes, being a door man was fun and interesting.
Away from work I think only two times I had to defend myself as an adult...granted that excludes the times that I was not feeling threatened and just reacted to something like being shoved and found out later the guy was armed or something stupid like that.
And yes, my Karate and Judo/Sambo came in very useful in all the situations.
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 17, 2012 20:03:17 GMT
Correctly studied Shotokan Karate IS a very useful Self Defence system Gaz BUT as I have often siad - in many Dojo it is studied for the purpose of passing an incomplete grading system and for tournament achievements and therefore is massively diluted and open to the criticisms it often recieves from the likes of MMA.
However if its full arsenal of techniques, strategies etc are correctly studied it is highly functional and over 35 yrs of dealing with real violence and dangerousness management I can assure you of this.
Many are fooling themselves though and would have to make a huge paradigm shift and change in their training and study content to make their Shotokan a truly functional SD system.
It has saaved my life many times in very real and very violent situations so I feel justified in making the comments I do.
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2012 21:30:05 GMT
Okay, have to agree with Steve. I had to adjust my training to real life situations and figure out what was useful and what was style dogma that did little in the way of saving arse when boots were trying to kick it!
The truth is only a small percent of your normal everyday dojo training we see in "modern" karate is worthy of being taught for street defense. The rest, like Steve said, is twaddle used to grade you.
Actually kind of sad that so many black belts strap on Obi's that resprosent their mastering basics and yet they cant save their own lives with what they "mastered" in the first place.
My advice, get out and train with those that have been in situations and know what does and does not work.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 17, 2012 23:38:33 GMT
im going to have to broaden my horizons one day soon! but until then... its comforting for me to know that a well timed half step gyaku -zuki with full kime, on its own! has helped me out on a couple of occasions! i think the technique, speed and power developed through shotokan training produces a much forcefull punch than any boxer.  |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 1:17:32 GMT
im going to have to broaden my horizons one day soon! but until then... its comforting for me to know that a well timed half step gyaku -zuki with full kime, on its own! has helped me out on a couple of occasions! i think the technique, speed and power developed through shotokan training produces a much forcefull punch than any boxer. An assumption I accept but it seems you have not Boxed or trained with good Boxers Gaz - trust me on this an average Boxer has a far wider 'Punch' arsenal and considerably more power than a very large majority of Karateka. I am not here suggesting that Karateka are not capable of hitting hard - they indeed are but Boxers can hit exceptionally hard and most of them harder! However - studied fully there isn't a puch in the Boxers arsenal that is not in the full Shotokan arsenal and we have many more strikes, kicks etc as well. |
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jan 18, 2012 6:17:46 GMT
An assumption I accept but it seems you have not Boxed or trained with good Boxers Gaz - trust me on this an average Boxer has a far wider 'Punch' arsenal and considerably more power than a very large majority of Karateka. I am not here suggesting that Karateka are not capable of hitting hard - they indeed are but Boxers can hit exceptionally hard and most of them harder! I frequently tell students that it is really easy to see who regularly hits a makiwara or heavy bag and who hasn't. The problem is that too many just punch or kick the air and never hit things. A real eye-opening exercise for many is to have them try to make hard contact on a bag held by a non-compliant moving partner. A great book to read is Jack Dempsey's Championship Boxing. Except for a few minor sytlstic differences, it could be a great text on how a karate-ka should punch. |
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Jan 18, 2012 13:37:47 GMT
I frequently tell students that it is really easy to see who regularly hits a makiwara or heavy bag and who hasn't. The problem is that too many just punch or kick the air and never hit things. A real eye-opening exercise for many is to have them try to make hard contact on a bag held by a non-compliant moving partner. I would totally agree with this. I've seen it in my own dojo. When my instructors bring in pads, there's always a group of people (most of them kids) who my instructors look at in desperation every time they see them hit something (floppy wrists, no power, no rooting, etc.), and have them stand there repeating whilst the rest of us are in line waiting our turn. To be perfectly honest, I think making contact with pads needs to be brought in at about the same time people start learning Heian Nidan. |
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 18, 2012 15:08:15 GMT
I have to say hitting things is fun and also teaches you how to hit some "ONE".
However the most successfull fight I ever was in (If I was dumb enough to grade them this way) was the one where I stuck my thumb in the guys eye socket and shock his head violently till he passed out. Not much fun for people with a shy tummy but it worked, I did not get hurt and the cop threw up when I told him about it.
The attacker had a head ache and scratched eye but still could see out of it when I was done....Thank GOD!
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 19:08:44 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 18, 2012 19:26:33 GMT
I made the mistake , many years ago, of celebrating passing my shodan in my local pub. From then on it was like being the fastest gun in the west! Even acquaintances, people I would happily have bought a drink for, were looking to knock my teeth down my throat so they could brag they had floored a blackbelt! It was a steep learning curve I can tell you! However we have covered this on another post I think? The importance of contact and to ensure that your techniques are effective? I concur with Steve, I personally have boxed and they punch harder than the average karate-ka. I also played rugby in my youth and Judo sporadically so I think it is as important being able to take a dig as being able to throw one! As for Men-tsuki cmon you have to!
|
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jan 18, 2012 19:50:36 GMT
I've been lucky so far in that i've always been able to avoid trouble or talk them down. I have been involved in a scuffle or two but again been able to avoid full on contact.
I feel a lot more confident that I would be able to defend myself better with Karate skills - or at least look like i'm fast and furious to confuse them - I would still take the route of avoidance if possible though.
I've lost my temper a couple of times but always been in control and moved away to cool down.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 18, 2012 21:28:11 GMT
My Old karate instructor used to say there was no point in learning self defence from someone who had never had to defend themselves, it would be like getting in an aeroplane with a pilot who had read the manual, had a session in a flight simulator but had never actually flown a plane!
|
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jan 18, 2012 22:04:08 GMT
Not sure I totally agree with that analogy.
How about being taught to fly by a pilot who'd been taught by an experienced pilot and spent hundreds of hours flying in a simulator under guidance but had never actually flown a plane himself. Just because he'd never faced the actual pressure of landing a plane (so you've no way of knowing if he'd crumble under that pressure) does that make any of the knowledge he's learned from his instructor useless and not worth listening to?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jan 18, 2012 22:27:15 GMT
...however, if he billed himself as a professional pilot, that would be a different matter  It's all about honesty at the end of the day. |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 22:28:30 GMT
My Old karate instructor used to say there was no point in learning self defence from someone who had never had to defend themselves, it would be like getting in an aeroplane with a pilot who had read the manual, had a session in a flight simulator but had never actually flown a plane! Actually Jim that is exactly how modern military training works. I had several of my Dan grade students come to work for me on the Doors - to a man they handled it very well. If the training is correct you can prepare people for 'battle' so I am afraid I don't agree with your old Instructor. Also, having had the pleasure of teaching at your Dojo - I had no concerns that your people wouldn't 'step up' if required! Otherwise I never would have agreed to go to THAT Pub you all took me to LMAO! Jeez even the pensioners in there were frightening and as for the women - tERRIFYING! lmao! |
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jan 18, 2012 22:33:39 GMT
It would be wrong to have to qualify as an instructor that you had to have been in fights or had to defend yourself, most people go without being in these situations or are canny enough to detect trouble and avoid it.
I have read about a senior Karate-ka who has had no problem avoiding trouble and was regularly the cause of it, he may be able to teach you very well but is not very good as a role model for those that believe you should cross the street first.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Jan 18, 2012 22:36:09 GMT
I've got to say though that for someone that has never experienced a physical confrontation it can be quite daunting as they don't know what to expect, but I found that the more they are exposed to these situations the more they can make their training work |
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 22:39:39 GMT
NOT SURE i AM UNDERSTANDING YOU THERE dOD - ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO REAL VIOLENCE FOR THE TRAINING TO WORK - OR DO YOU MEAN EXPOSING THEM TO REALISTIC AS CAN BE TRAINING IS THE KEY?
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 22:40:51 GMT
NOT SURE i AM UNDERSTANDING YOU THERE dOD - ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO REAL VIOLENCE FOR THE TRAINING TO WORK - OR DO YOU MEAN EXPOSING THEM TO REALISTIC AS CAN BE TRAINING IS THE KEY?
Damn Caps lock arghhhhh! sorry for shouting! teehee!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Jan 18, 2012 22:47:54 GMT
No one should really be exposed to real violence, what I'm trying to say is that the more you're exposed to it, i.e. door work, the better you respond, but before you think that I'm saying that everyone will be able to up their game, I'm not, you can teach someone to do karate but you can't make them fight |
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Jan 18, 2012 23:39:21 GMT
Have reread my post and it is confusing. What I mean is that Door work etc really lets you know how it will be but if we get the training right the students should be well prepared and know what to expect - including the fear and anxiety.
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 23:46:23 GMT
Wise words Dod! Hope Kim is feeling better soon XX
|
|
|
|
Post by fleur on Jan 19, 2012 10:52:57 GMT
"Been left no other option?"
No, and as I'm a chicken shit. Thank God for that.
I work on my own, in an office with no one around. One day a disgruntled customer came in and I realised I felt threatened. I calmed him down with understanding words and reassurances that the problem would be resolved. Eventually after a period of time with awkward silence he left.
After he left i thought about the situation. I realised at no time had my mind clicked into self defense mode, I realised that I had felt scared and immobilised. I remember thinking, "Shit, you wouldn't think you've been training in karate for 3 years" fear had numbed my brain and I concluded that if push came to shove I doubted if I could of pulled anything together.
The truth is I pray I never have to find out. I think my instinct is to 'freeze'. The only time I could really ever see the 'dog' come out in me I think is if my child was under threat and again I think that is a inbuilt 'protective parental instinct' embedded into our blueprint that has nothing to do with training.
So, I train with absolutely no idea whether it will be any use to me. Who knows.
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 19, 2012 11:22:39 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jan 19, 2012 13:09:11 GMT
When is this book due out Steve - had lots of tasters but think it will be a good read.
Fleur - maybe your Karate training gave you the strength to calm and resolve the situation without it getting any worse....?
I think anyone who saw their family or friends in danger would act accordingly - trained or not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 19, 2012 16:03:25 GMT
way to go fleur, always best and wiser to resolve confrontations with a few carefully chosen words, and that should always be the first option, i only ever found myself without an option but to fight once, i was actually walking away from the guy AFTER he'd already swung a wild haymaker, which missed (saw it coming a mile away, may as well have e.mailed me the day before to say its on the way!) again I told him i wasnt fighting him, he was about 2 stone heavier and slightly taller, I really didnt want to be rolling around with this clown! but he was following me and being very aggressive, i admit i was worried for my safety, i then knew i had no option. i decided to be assertive and turn round and again tell him i wasnt gonna fight, but this time i was aware of the distance between us thinking im gonna have to hit him as hard as i can, soon as he came in range i half stepped gayka zuki as close to the temple as i could, he just froze and slowly started to fall, for a second i didnt know what to do but i knew i wasnt willing to trade blows with him, and as his head lowered i fired a mia geri straight into his dish and it was all over! i like to think we both learned a lesson that night, for me it was always be assertive, be aware of the situation, and have some faith in your training! and for him, dont pick on ginger guys who are smaller than you for no reason, a more angry person could have easily kept on kicking!
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 20, 2012 13:26:30 GMT
Have you read that chapter I sent you Gaz - go check the elements of the Warrior Mindset  |
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 21, 2012 11:37:34 GMT
Hmmm, I think it is important part of your training to be hit! And to be taken out of your comfort zone regularly. This definitely helps to make it less likely one will freeze in moments of stress. Fleur is definitely to be applauded for her honesty but her reaction was a very human one and perfectly natural. Dwelling on the possibility of freezing just makes it more likely to happen and we are all subject to the same physiological reactions whether we admit it to ourselves or not.
If your training does not include this kind of practice then all the simulations in the world wont prepare you for the reality, if, heaven forfend , it should ever happen to you.
Steve, I will have you know I took you into one of the more salubrious watering holes in my village! Those pensioners were my students and as for the women.....well ya got me there! most Friday nights it is like Prisoner Cell Block H!
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 24, 2012 21:40:21 GMT
yes steve, read the chapter preview, twas an interesting read and very true, i was close on the question at the beginning! ive emailed ya personally with some feedback, keep us posted on the book please!
|
|
