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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 18, 2012 22:51:52 GMT
Could someone please enlighten me to why, or if, Kata is important to karate training, ive got to learn them all again!!!! dont get me wrong! i enjoy them and it feels good to be able to reel off a load of set movements, they make me feel more ....er... fluid? but dont fully understand the reason behing them. all theory's welcome, thanks. Gaz Lee
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Post by genkaimade on Jan 18, 2012 23:01:08 GMT
I'm not the person to explain this, but as an introduction for the kind of response you'll get, kata is Karate and Karate is kata.
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Post by malk103 on Jan 18, 2012 23:09:21 GMT
Tricky to explain and I will only show my ignorance.... I think early on it's a real test of the grading as it's the main part that they have to do alone and up in front of everyone else. Further on it's a revelation when you start to "get" the Bunkai and that every move means something but could be more than one application. It is true that there are many things that were at first hidden within the Kata, the work of someone like Iain Abernethy can help to realise what is inside each Kata. Now I see Kata as a simulation of attacks/defense, it's only when you perform them with true spirit and power that you can get satisfaction from them. It's good to see other students go from learning the moves to performing the Kata. Unless you are out of breath after each one then it's not being done right. (IMHO) It's even trickier than I thought to put it into words.....
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2012 23:52:38 GMT
this should get the posts rolling - creating efficiency in fighting ability DOES NOT mean that Kata is an essential requirement. Proficiency can be gained with NO Kata practice at all.
Well structured and complete KIhon and Kumite practice is all that is required.
Do i recomend Kata practise - of course but it isn't essential.
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 19, 2012 0:26:08 GMT
i was wondering if it also some sort of mental training as well as physical, trying to remember the correct sequence and speed of movements has certainly got my brain aching, i used to know them all up to nidan requirements and thought (perhaps nievely) i had them down to a good standard, did heian shodan and tekki shodan tonight, they were instantly recognisable from when i used to know them, but really had to concentrate on the speed of flow and a few of the more technical bits, im gonna have to learn the pattern at home then sharpen them in the dojo me thinks! gonna have to spend some serious time on these.... especially the tekki's
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Post by kensei on Jan 19, 2012 11:30:11 GMT
I wont be saying yes or no to this one, just telling a small story....
Years ago I knew of two brothers...twins (no not kidding). One did Kyokushin and the other Shotokan...and no I am still not kidding.
The one that did Kyokushin went to a club that was heavy into bag work, heavey into kumite and really big into tournaments..the knockdown stuff.
The other brother went to a traditional shotokan club that did the three K's equally and also, thankfully, had a Makiwara and heavy bag to strike but did not focus on it as much as the Kyokushin guys.
At the open tournaments the Kyokushin brother Matt did well in Kumite and he placed second or third in brown belt level every time but did not fair well in Kata if he even entered. Mike, the Shotokan kid did very well in Kata, placing second and often first..and almost always first in Kumite!
Years went buy and the way I met them was working the front door at the bar with both of them. Mike, the Shotokan guy was even tempered, easy to work with and got along well with everyone in the bar...Matt however was a hot head when challenged and while fun loving was quick to start getting rough with the patrons when they were normally just having fun.
After three months of working Mike was doing well, had broken up pretty much a fight or two a night...but the only time I ever saw him throw a punch or kick...he did so with control and did just the right amount of damage as was needed and then relied on the rest of us to stop the fight as a team. Matt on the other hand had been IN a fight a night and had no control. He also tended to hurt the guys he was with...if he was not getting dragged off the bottom of the fight.
The one big fight we had, about four months into working with the team...Matt was KO'd in the fight and Mike was not.
Mikes form and techniques were perfect but he also learned self control and emotional control...Matt...not so much.
I am not saying that Kata did all this, or that Kyokushin is bad..its not.
I am saying its something to think about.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 20, 2012 16:58:01 GMT
If you practise kata purely for competition or as a means to an end, ( the end being to pass your next belt,), then the only value is in winning a shiny trophy or "advancing " in grade. However, if you believe, as I do, that kata actually encapsulate a combative principle, then the point of kata becomes the learning of that principle. I am not saying I am right but it fits my ethos and I truly believe as mentioned at the beginning of this thread , that "Kata is karate and karate is kata".
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Post by malk103 on Jan 20, 2012 20:34:36 GMT
During our last grading the Purple+1 belts were doing Tekki Shodan for their Kata as part of their grade, during the pre grade lesson they were going through the motions but it was very limp.
During the break my Sensei hinted that I should help them sharpen it up and quick. I did the Kata to ensure they had the correct movements and then showed them again - but this time it was me re-enacting a battle with Kime, focus, power and a rocket up my backside.
They got the hint and passed with a good grade. I think that unless you are imagining that you are in the middle of a battle then you are just performing moves....
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Post by nathanso on Jan 20, 2012 21:44:07 GMT
I think that unless you are imagining that you are in the middle of a battle then you are just performing moves.... I would add that unless you practice your kata with a non-compliant partner attacking at full speed you are also just practicing moves.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 20, 2012 22:10:35 GMT
...or practicing the mentality with kata as a vehicle.
Been there, done that, a very intense experience that if done with a partner at the time would have ended up with someone in hospital (or worse). Some things you have do do solo and kata is good for that. Only a part of the whole I'll admit but a valuable part none the less.
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Post by deckerdude304 on Jan 21, 2012 1:15:30 GMT
Re: Kata! WHY? You are of course correct genKaimade. Kata IS AS essential as Kumitie and Kihon, otherwise there would BE NO Karate!! I do not believe that 'Well strutured Kihon and Kumitie practise' IS all that is required in Karate, i believe that well strutured Kihon, Kumitie AND Kata is required.....Kata came first as i am led to believe, Kumitie came a very distant second!!
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Post by nathanso on Jan 21, 2012 5:51:33 GMT
kata is Karate and Karate is kata. Re: Kata! WHY? You are of course correct genKaimade. Kata IS AS essential as Kumitie and Kihon, otherwise there would BE NO Karate!! I do not believe that 'Well strutured Kihon and Kumitie practise' IS all that is required in Karate, i believe that well strutured Kihon, Kumitie AND Kata is required.....Kata came first as i am led to believe, Kumitie came a very distant second!! All that you guys have said is that kata is important. You have not said why you think that it is important, or what you think kata practice entails.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 21, 2012 6:30:58 GMT
Kata= make technique Kumite= use technique Osu Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 21, 2012 11:13:12 GMT
All that you guys have said is that kata is important. You have not said why you think that it is important, or what you think kata practice entails.
I believe I did, however to expand, the performance of kata is pointless as an exercise alone. The study of kata and its principles is vital. The same could be said of just marching up and down performing techniques in thin air and then expecting to be a rounded and competent fighter. All the elements of practice are important if used in context, but without intent or understanding it is just moving elegantly ( or in my case not so elegantly).
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 21, 2012 22:22:34 GMT
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Post by nathanso on Jan 21, 2012 23:17:26 GMT
the performance of kata is pointless as an exercise alone. The study of kata and its principles is vital. The same could be said of just marching up and down performing techniques in thin air and then expecting to be a rounded and competent fighter. All the elements of practice are important if used in context, but without intent or understanding it is just moving elegantly ( or in my case not so elegantly). I agree with this, with the addition )which may be implied by what you wrote) that exclusively practicing kata by oneself misses the point that kata, like kihon, needs to also be done with a partner and not just against the air.
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Post by nathanso on Jan 21, 2012 23:20:40 GMT
this should get the posts rolling - creating efficiency in fighting ability DOES NOT mean that Kata is an essential requirement. Proficiency can be gained with NO Kata practice at all. Well structured and complete KIhon and Kumite practice is all that is required. Do i recomend Kata practise - of course but it isn't essential. I would probably agree with this. If one just wanted to learn to fight, one could do it without kata. But that is not my sole or perhaps even main interest, and I would not want to drop it.
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Post by nathanso on Jan 21, 2012 23:24:20 GMT
Kata= make technique Kumite= use technique Osu Paul B I'm not sure I understand what you meant by this, if by kumite you mean any of the standard 5/3/1-step/jiyu ippon/shobu ippon type of kumite. If you mean kumite to include any type of partner work, then I would agree.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 22, 2012 3:19:36 GMT
With kata, we train to perfect technique, looking for flawless execution. When we train with partners &/or any type of dojo, or tournament sparring, self defense included, we focus on being effective, being pretty isn`t quite as important!! Osu Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 22, 2012 11:54:50 GMT
It is obvious from some of the replies here that a neglected part of training is kata practised with a partner. It vital that solo kata is practised for precision, unsoku, timing etc. But to make it work, it must be practised with an opponent. It is no wonder people ask the question " What is the point of kata"? No point if there is no understanding of the purpose or intent. Kata can be practised as solo drills, flow drills, self-defence scenarios and kumite. The list is endless and only bound by your imagination. It is an important and relevant part of all karate styles and should make up a large part of any effective training regime. If this is not the case, then an argument could be made for dropping it from your syllabus, to the detriment of your training in my opinion.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 22, 2012 18:21:30 GMT
Excellent response Jim. I always tell my students that what you get out of kata is only limited by your imagination & your experience!! Paul B
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