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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 19, 2012 9:56:11 GMT
well after reading posts and articles on how shotokan has "evolved" since when it first came over from japan, (for those who dont know me, ive been missing in action for quite some time) i always liked the notion that shotokan was a traditional style with training focused on long, deep stances, (probably to condition the body i suspect) and techniques to generate force and power, but also the notion that it was much about self discipline and character building as well as self defence. now obviously evolution is a part of life and keeps the world moving, and with todays knowledge & technology we know more than we did. so it now appears that certain aspects of these original techniques are detrimental to the body and so they have been modified! that can only be a good thing! and then there are people who want to make it more adaptable to real life situations, which i can understand why, no point learning it if you cant use it! (or is there? even if it's just to benefit the body,mind, or health?) and then there is the sport aspect of it, which i believe traditionalists arnt interested in, as that is not what it was originally created for, although most pastimes practised by many people the world over have often become sports or competition. So where's it all gonna end??? NOT karate in general... but shotokan?  will there be different styles of shotokan??? or can there only be one??? and what would define it??? just after different opinions all welcome Gaz Lee |
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Post by fleur on Jan 19, 2012 10:11:36 GMT
Well since I think there has been about a million splits since the inception of Shotokan I think we can safely conclude that there is diffenately already more than one. Some clubs only do traditional training, some only do sport/competition and some do a blend of both. Many have different aspects of Shotokan depending on the direction their teachers took. Look at Asia, his style is quite diffenate to traditional Shotokan, but it is still called Shotokan yet to me it doesn't look like Shotokan at all. And this is the same of ALL styles. Evolution? As to "where's it going to end" and "what will define it". Well only time will tell.  |
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 19, 2012 11:25:09 GMT
I think Fleur meant 'Look at Asai' Folks - not Asia Teehee!
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 19, 2012 15:27:34 GMT
so ive checked out my lineage of shotokan, and it would appear , to me at least, that it isnt that far removed from the original brought to japan by funakoshi, it would prob have gone to my sensei's, who were trained by the senior KUGB and the red triangle mob, led by Sensei Enoeda who was a direct student of funakoshi.
so im concluding that the basics and kata we aim to master up to shodan could be classed as trad. shotokan, and then all further training we seek and absorb then becomes our own style depending how we incorporate it into our training.
im sorry if my posts are/or becoming annoying, like ive said earlier, there was no internet 20 years ago and i find all this information fascinating, im just thinking out loud and fishing for opinions!
Thanks
gaz.
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Post by genkaimade on Jan 19, 2012 15:55:31 GMT
im sorry if my posts are/or becoming annoying, like ive said earlier, there was no internet 20 years ago and i find all this information fascinating, im just thinking out loud and fishing for opinions! Thanks gaz. Don't be ridiculous! That's precisely what this forum is for! Ask and think as much as you like! Feed your curiosity! |
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Post by malk103 on Jan 19, 2012 16:27:50 GMT
It would be nice to have a kind of global standard through one org and refer to it, that way a BB in Oz, UK or say Canada would all be at the same level of knowledge and ability. Looking at some vids on Utube this is clearly not always the case.
It would also be wrong to point to a time in History and say "that is Karate" and we should strive to keep it the same, if it needs to evolve to keep up attendance then it needs to consider change.
It then becomes a problem with who can change it, unless of course they splinter away and form another Org to make changes....
One change I would like to see is the dropping of so much Jap terminology, it does make Karate easy to understand where-ever you are in the world if it's all one language but could we break from tradition and just use English?
I suspect we will continue having several "styles" and adaptations of the main Style, if attendance does drop off then it may turn into survival of those that adapt and attract new students, but hopefully not at the risk of degrading the art. Or it will become a very exclusive club!
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Post by nathanso on Jan 19, 2012 23:50:12 GMT
so ive checked out my lineage of shotokan, and it would appear , to me at least, that it isnt that far removed from the original brought to japan by funakoshi, it would prob have gone to my sensei's, who were trained by the senior KUGB and the red triangle mob, led by Sensei Enoeda who was a direct student of funakoshi.... Since Enoeda was one of my primary instructors when I started in the '60s, I would say that the JKA/KUGB version of shotokan is pretty far removed from what Funakoshi brought to Japan, based on what Funakoshi wrote and showed in his book To-Te Jitsu. However, I blame (or give credit to, depending on your point of view) that at least as much on Funakoshi himself as I do on Nakayama and the JKA. There is a great interview years ago in SKM where Harada syas that Funakoshi told them kata was important but never taught them why. A pretty telling comment. If I really wanted to stir the pot, I'd say that if people really wanted to do "traditional" karate, they would do away with not just tournaments but such other 20th century inventions as belts and gis. It is my impression that Ohshima's SKA is a much closer example of Funakoshi's immediate post-WWII version of shotokan that the JKA and its various offspring, since Ohshima makes a point of saying that he hasn't changed things since he left Japan in the 1950s. Note that none of what I just said should be construed as meaning that I am either against change or advocating things liking dropping belts, ranking, competitions, or gis. |
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 20, 2012 0:57:28 GMT
interesting nathen, would it be right to think the karate japan brought to us would have been much different to the karate funakoshi brought to japan? either way, my thinking on karate has changed so much recently and am now more inclined to think about its effectiveness more than its tradition, which is prob why there has been so many divisions over the years!
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Post by nathanso on Jan 20, 2012 3:46:06 GMT
interesting nathen, would it be right to think the karate japan brought to us would have been much different to the karate funakoshi brought to japan? either way, my thinking on karate has changed so much recently and am now more inclined to think about its effectiveness more than its tradition, which is prob why there has been so many divisions over the years! I think that the divisions have had more to do with the desire to be in charge and in control of the money stream. But, I have a somewhat skeptical view of human nature. |
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Post by guyakuzuki on Jan 20, 2012 6:17:51 GMT
even the shotokan that Funakoshi sensei brought to Japan was different from the one in Okinawa so I'm sure the karate taught overseas surely was different from the "okinawa" style....Funakoshi didn't like kumite for example......So I think the style nowadays has changed a lot imop...
Shotokan dojo that pretend to teach the traditional style are making fools of themselves .....
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Post by malk103 on Jan 20, 2012 9:20:29 GMT
It would be interesting to get sight of the Okinawan Karate that was changed by Itosu to get it into mainstream schools.
Should this be considered traditional?
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Post by kensei on Jan 20, 2012 13:35:52 GMT
Shotokan is a term used for the collective "Similarity" based systems that are taught around the world.
I have trained with "Traditional" Dojos in the states and had many people come and train at our head quarters and their styles were so dissimilar but had "Similarities" to our style that its not funny.
Judging from what I have seen...shotokan is a term used to describe styles that use the same Katas, have similar Kihon base and that is about it...oh, and we all come from the same roots.
Having said that I have trained with American groups that were very Kihon Centric and barely did any Kumite, I have trained with a few American groups that were very Sport oriented and did tones of drills but not much in the way of just basic Kihon.
I have worked out with German groups that had very poor Kihon but damn if they were not fast and had great Kumite, A instructor from Hong Kong who had piss poor Kata and no control in his Kumite but HOLY HAND BOMBS was he fast and had great Kumtie, a few Ausies that had very nice Kata and no idea how to do Kumite other than as a one point sporty thingy..a few Brits that were Killer in Kumite and tough as nails but had weaker than normal Kata and very strange stances...and a south African lad that was so fast during his Kata that we had to ask him to actually slow down...he even paused fast! ;D
I have seen variations on the back stance, different add ins for Kata, kumite that was as bouncy as a Kangaroo and guys that just stood their...I have seen 12 different variations of Heian Nidan and I have seen people that did the extra Kata's that Asai Sensei created.
The one thing I have never ever seen is someone teach exactly the same as the next guy...and to me...thats fantastic.
Variety is not just the spice of life it keeps it fresh. If we all did it the same way it would be dull dull dull!
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 24, 2012 22:00:27 GMT
hmmm, very good point kensie! i really need to get out more! ;-) ive only been back in training a couple of weeks now and though i felt like i was starting over again the first week, this second week im starting to feel like a senior grade again, (although an out of breath one with aching leg muscles) my sensie keeps forgeting ive not trained for years, had me training a complete novice this week cause i turned up half hour early! and then in my class had me demonstrating kick combo's at full speed that i'd not done for years to the purple and brown belts! im now in agony! the muscles in the backs of my top legs are unbelievably sore but it serves me right for my "break" in training.
But i cant believe how quick its come back to me, although its not quite the speed i used to able to do, sensie was happy with the technique and hip movements! surely this must all be down to the quality of instruction and training i recieved in my youth??
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 27, 2012 12:55:32 GMT
There are as many ways to do shotokan as there are variety in the human body. no one person is going to it the same as another and when one persons idiosyncracy becomes copied by others then we see these variations become commonplace. But also go look at other styles. The superficial differences are where we tend to focus but it should be on the common principles! Then we will gain a better understanding of our own style and karate in general.
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will there be different styles of shotokan??? or can there only be one??? and what would define it???
