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Meikyo
Feb 17, 2012 19:53:12 GMT
Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 17, 2012 19:53:12 GMT
Why are there so many variations in Meikyo for the three techniques following each of the Kiba Dachi Joshin Gamae? My understanding is that the standard JKA version is Gedan Barai, Gedan Barai and Uchi Uke. I have over the years trained with groups that have versions consisting of (1) GB, GB, GB. (2) GB, GB, Age Uke. (3) GB, Uchi Uke, Age Uke. Any thoughts ? Best Regards Allan
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Meikyo
Feb 17, 2012 22:44:50 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 17, 2012 22:44:50 GMT
I think because it is not one of the "Core" Funakoshi kata that seniors learning the Kata just put their personal stampon it. I know Kanazawa does GB, Uchi, Age in one of his vids then I have seen him do GB,UU,UU and GB, GB,GB....so to be frank....I think it more up to what you like. JKA says GB, GB, UU...so thats what I do.
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Meikyo
Feb 17, 2012 23:14:48 GMT
Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 17, 2012 23:14:48 GMT
Whilst I appreciate that "Karate-Do Kyohan...The Master Text" by Gichin Funakoshi lists the 15 core kata which does not include Meikyo there is a 1924 video on You Tube showing Sensei Gichin Funakoshi performing Meikyo with GB,GB, UU which appears to be followed by the likes of Sensei's Asai, Kase and Ohta to name a few so why would there be so many variations on this kata but almost non on the others from the recognised 27 kata if it is more up to what "you" like?
Wankan (which is not one of the 15 core kata) in the opening moves has both Kokutsu Dachi or Neko Ashi Dachi as alternatives whilst we all know that Sensei Kanazawa changed the Dai and Sho of Gojushiho around. Is this apparent poetic license so to speak ok?
I personally do not have a problem with it but it can get confusing when say for example that you train with a group or organisation that does not conform to GB,GB and UU (Funakoshi, JKA, Asai, Kase and Ohta etc)) and insist that their way is the right way!!
Best Regards Allan
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Meikyo
Feb 20, 2012 19:10:30 GMT
Post by andyupton on Feb 20, 2012 19:10:30 GMT
We (Wirral Shotokan) do : Gedan Barai, Gedan Barai, Uchi Uke. Incidentally, exactly when did the Kata change its' name from "Rohai" to "Meikyo", and why ?
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Meikyo
Feb 20, 2012 19:52:29 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 20, 2012 19:52:29 GMT
Ok, my understanding is that Rohai originated from Monk-fist Boxing or Lohan quan. The Oknawan pronunciation of that was Rohai which apparently is close to the word for heron or crane. Rohai has a shodan, nidan and sandan version hence the different versions available now. Meikyo meaning polished mirror refers to the reflective nature of the kata or how the embusen is repeated and was renamed as were many others , by Funakoshi to make them more accessible to the Japanese ( or acceptable). Itosu was said to have based his version on Tomari te Rohai but this version bears little resemblance to Meikyo as we know it but does include crane stance as in Gankaku.
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Meikyo
Feb 21, 2012 17:31:17 GMT
Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 21, 2012 17:31:17 GMT
Meikyo was adapted by Funakoshi as one of Itosu's three Rohai kata which are thought to have originated with Matsumura. Apparently there are Meikyo Shodan, Nidan and Sandan which vary considerably. I think the general concensus of Meikyo Shodan is GB, GB and UU.
Best Regards Allan
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Meikyo
Feb 22, 2012 13:57:41 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 22, 2012 13:57:41 GMT
My research suggests that Meikyo was NOT adapted by Funakoshi but rather Nakayama and the research team sent to Mabuni's to learn some old Kata. It has been suggested that Gigo had his hand in it. but as I examin the time lines for many of my notes I am finding that Gigo Funakoshi may have been long since gone before they had time to really start making changes and adapting Kata. However it is not likely that Funakoshi Sensei really had much of a hand in this.
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Meikyo
Feb 22, 2012 16:57:08 GMT
Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 22, 2012 16:57:08 GMT
Hi James
When Sensei Funakoshi recorded the 1924 video of Meikyo Nakayama (April 1913 to April 1987) would have been 11 years old?
When you say "adapted" are you talking about the other variations of GB, GB, and UU or are you talking about Sensei Funakoshi not adapting one of Itosu's 3 Rohai kata and this aspect of the variations being attributed to Nakayama much later?
Best Regards Allan
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Meikyo
Feb 23, 2012 13:52:18 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 23, 2012 13:52:18 GMT
Hi James When Sensei Funakoshi recorded the 1924 video of Meikyo Nakayama (April 1913 to April 1987) would have been 11 years old? When you say "adapted" are you talking about the other variations of GB, GB, and UU or are you talking about Sensei Funakoshi not adapting one of Itosu's 3 Rohai kata and this aspect of the variations being attributed to Nakayama much later? Best Regards Allan Well, two things....first off my thoughts are that Funakoshi (in 1924) did the way we do it, the adaptation was NOT of Itosu Senseis Katas but a variation he learned from Mabuni himself. I actually reserve right to draw that statement back though depending on the results of the next thing I want to introduce.... Many people believe that this is NOT Funakoshi in the films and he was not able to do the Kata mentioned at all. He basically knew and taught the first 15 and that is all. the suggestion I read that it was not Funakoshi came with a few interesting, even if they may not be correct, assertions. One, in the Tekki and Meikyo videos his face is never clear, its almost like it was blacked out on purpose. The cost of doing such a film back then would have meant that they would have had a pro shoot it and it would have had much better lighting, and even then...his face would have been shown much better. Funakoshi was also poor by most peoples standards when he got to Japan. Ergo the cost to hire a film maker would have been way to much for him and his students to handle...and it looks like just he would have done this. Ergo, it probably was not him if you go by this assertion, aslo the person that posted that on the forum is a film junkie and he stated that the technology used to do this film was not actually available in Japan at that time, its more advanced than that which was ready for hire in 1924 Japan and more closer to 1940's technology. making me think its probably a film that was mistaken for him. But again, the source of this on a different thread is also clear that with out his getting his hands on physical copies it all a guess based on educated guessing. Just a thought, and for the record...I hope it was him, its interesting to see our roots showing.!
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Meikyo
Feb 25, 2012 15:08:34 GMT
Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 25, 2012 15:08:34 GMT
Hi James
Noted, first off your thoughts that Funakoshi did Meikyo the way we do it as GB, GB, and UU.
Whilst Meikyo was also not one of the 15 original kata why would he even consider having someone else perform Meikyo in the 1924 (or even 1940) video when considering his "Perfection of Character" ethos? Surely if all those followers around him ever considered that he was not a man of his word he would not have had the following that ensued to this day would he?
Best Regards Allan
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Meikyo
Feb 27, 2012 14:42:48 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 27, 2012 14:42:48 GMT
Hi James Whilst Meikyo was also not one of the 15 original kata why would he even consider having someone else perform Meikyo in the 1924 (or even 1940) video when considering his "Perfection of Character" ethos? Surely if all those followers around him ever considered that he was not a man of his word he would not have had the following that ensued to this day would he? Best Regards Allan I dont doubt that he would not have had someone "fill in for him" but that would infer he knew it was going on. I think perhaps the idea was that he simply did not have anything to do with the film....again, I am on the fence, I kind of hope it was him...simply because that would make it very interesting! J
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