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Post by malk103 on Feb 28, 2012 9:30:13 GMT
Apologies for the dodgey description as it's difficult to put into words.... After stepping into Kiba Dachi and performing an upper Empi strike there are 2 Gedan Barai moves in Kiba Dachi - this sequence is repeated later on. I've gotten a bit confused about the 2 Gedan Barai's and seen a couple of video clips where it's slightly different to how I have been practicing so thought I would ask for clarity. After the Empi there is a small shuffle and what looks like the first part of Gedan Barai but with keeping the sweeping fist up by your left shoulder, then a shuffle back towards the starting point and the rest of the Gedan Barai where the right fist is lowered. In fact the first Gedan after the Empi looks more like a Moroto Uke? Can someone please clarify this sequence, a hint at a possible Bunkai would help.
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Post by Bob Davis on Feb 28, 2012 10:00:20 GMT
Ok, "hint" despite what the lables in the books might call the techniques consider the possibility that there is actually NO gedan barai in this sequence at all. Actually I'll try and be a bit more helpful when I'm back at my own PC as I have a photo sequence showing what I use this sequence for but it's all very close range stuff.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 28, 2012 10:30:21 GMT
I was guessing that after elbowing someone on the chin and turning your back on them a couple of moves later then this sequence would involve something a bit more "meaty" than 2 blocks. It must be some sort of manipulation or strike - again only guessing so any clues would be most welcome.
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Post by Bob Davis on Feb 28, 2012 13:27:06 GMT
Actually, the picture sequence is already posted in a "Soto Uke" question (not great looking back at them but you'll get the idea). ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=tech&thread=615&page=1This is a good example of "label disease" as the sequence is described (as far as I can remember) as haito uchi, tate empi uchi, soto uke - gyaku tsuki and gedan barai but I actually use the haito are a parry and catch, the tate empi as a strike and/or block, the soto uke as a head grab, the gyaku tsuki as a repeated hook punch and the gedan barai (with weight shift) as a pull away distance maker. I know it's been said before but I will emphasize that this is not presented as "the" application, just something simple to apply that I came up with that works as a logical sequence with a start, middle and finish and that works as well (or better against a swinging punch as a straight karate punch.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 28, 2012 14:51:02 GMT
Thanks Bob, i'm happy that the applications can be varied and it's the general principle we should be focusing on. It makes sense to have the block followed by strike/grab/throw or variations of this. I need to research the moves better and adjust my Kata, also check with my Sensei.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 28, 2012 18:37:50 GMT
Hi Mal
The sequence on both occassions is as follows; from left kokutsu dachi haishu uke into right kiba dachi right jodan tate empi into right jodan soto uke/left chudan tsuki going forward (you describe as a small shuffle) followed by right gedan barai in kiba dachi going backwards.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by malk103 on Feb 28, 2012 19:34:53 GMT
Think i've got it - thank you Bob and Allan. I've just been on youtube and think I misinterpreted the Soto + Chudan Tsuki as something else. I've also found a great guy who does Bunkai vids and offers a good application(s) to the Kata: www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7naDDrWeF0He suggests the Gedan Barai is more likely an attack to the groin area which normally ends a conflict - or at least postpones it for a while.... ;D Thanks again!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 28, 2012 20:32:46 GMT
Hi Mal
In the sequence of Nijushiho after the left kokutsu dachi haishu uke the right kiba dachi jodan soto uke/left chudan tsuki is the attack since this is performed with yori ashi (see my previous postings on yori ashi/suri ashi in reply to Andy) going forward and the gedan barai going backwards is also yori ashi as a uke or uchi depending upon application.
Whilst DVD's/You Tube etc are a good source of "learning" you actually need someone who can show you the physical application of same. Otherwise it is just another form of distance learning which budo/bunkai and oyo is not!!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on Mar 2, 2012 14:17:20 GMT
Think i've got it - thank you Bob and Allan. I've just been on youtube and think I misinterpreted the Soto + Chudan Tsuki as something else. I've also found a great guy who does Bunkai vids and offers a good application(s) to the Kata: www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7naDDrWeF0He suggests the Gedan Barai is more likely an attack to the groin area which normally ends a conflict - or at least postpones it for a while.... ;D Thanks again! Personally I prefer Bob's interpretation. I find Didier Lupo's Bunkai stuff far too prescribed in terms of the form and too heavily reliant on karate-style attacks. The thing to remember when thinking about "kata bunkai" is to understand the transitions you make whilst moving between stances rather than the final stance itself. This can also be true for the "hand techniques" too. Oh and be careful with making the groin attack assumption. You tend to have a good few seconds grace period after getting hit there... especially if your adrenaline is up. (I know this from a very personal painful experience...about 5 seconds after I had retaliated)
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 11, 2012 4:50:55 GMT
Tom R is spot on with his advice to be wary of any Kata Bunkai that is predominantly focused upon defending against 'Karate style attacks' - although I remain adamant that there are NO 'this is THE application/s' and therefore we must have an open mind and consider what the 'implications' may be, I am equally confident in saying that I firmly believe that the Kata have all been designed to help us understand Self Defence against 'street attacks'. Unfortunately, (and yes I know tis another regular gripe of mine) Shotokan Karate has become limited in the arsenal it teaches, far too mid/long range and totally fixated on defending against a very limited number of Karate techniques within the standard and (often) solely practiced Kumite drills. This has consequentially lapped over into a lot of the thinking in relation to devising Kata Bunkai. If instead you direct you study and exploration into defending against common steet attack techniques - you will ( I and many others have!) find that the possible uses of the Kata movements become far easie to imagine and work with. Also - think close range! you'll then see, as Tom also points out, that there is more often than not a great deal occuing as the Kata movements ae in tansition and not just at the typical 'stop/stat again 'end' of the movements that we see in a large pat of the commonly used Shotokan Kihon and Kumite Drills. Nice one Tom - you have been listening fo the past 20 years or so afte all! LOL! Only joking folks Tom is a long term student with our group - a fine karateka but a total featherhead otherwise - just ask his missus!!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 11, 2012 16:34:02 GMT
I do agree with Tom about assuming the target area by the level of the punch. If you take a few moments of reflection it would appear that most "punches" in kata are aimed at chudan level ? This cannot be right if analysed dispassionately so we are left with the likelihood that the proceeding technique is used to bring the opponents head down to chudan level ? I know this is speculation but it is speculation with the advantage of common sense! A good illustration of this would be the opening sequence of heian shodan. If you are in close opposition to your opponent and exchanging blows, lets say, a clash of forearms is inevitable. if you use the gedan barai as an arm grab and step to the left sharply making "gedan barai", your opponent is pulled forward and off balance, bringing his head down to chudan level. Hold the opponents arm at hikite and step forward oi-tsuki, striking your opponent on the angle of the jaw just below the ear. No adjustment of the kata is required and it works !
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Post by th0mas on Mar 12, 2012 14:08:34 GMT
Only joking folks Tom is a long term student with our group - a fine karateka but a total featherhead otherwise - just ask his missus!! Oh Touche Mr Hyland ... lol ;D
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Post by malk103 on Mar 12, 2012 21:53:13 GMT
I do agree with Tom about assuming the target area by the level of the punch. If you take a few moments of reflection it would appear that most "punches" in kata are aimed at chudan level ? This cannot be right if analysed dispassionately so we are left with the likelihood that the proceeding technique is used to bring the opponents head down to chudan level ? I know this is speculation but it is speculation with the advantage of common sense! A good illustration of this would be the opening sequence of heian shodan. If you are in close opposition to your opponent and exchanging blows, lets say, a clash of forearms is inevitable. if you use the gedan barai as an arm grab and step to the left sharply making "gedan barai", your opponent is pulled forward and off balance, bringing his head down to chudan level. Hold the opponents arm at hikite and step forward oi-tsuki, striking your opponent on the angle of the jaw just below the ear. No adjustment of the kata is required and it works ! I really enjoy looking further into the Kata and often wonder how far you can "stray" from the Kata form in applying different applications. When you do the basic bunkai of the above you block a kick but when you step forward Oi Zuki you are almost face to face when you are supposed to be punching them (unless they move back a little). I prefer to think of it like you describe above, or straying a bit your right hikite arm in Gedan Barai is pulling them forward and the Gedan Barai is striking their now lowered head or arm, the Oi Zuki could then turn into another strike or somehow setting them up for a throw as you turn 180 degrees. I think i've read this one somewhere before but it was possibly explained a bit better
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 13, 2012 1:27:59 GMT
Mal, try not to get sucked into the "demonstration" type bunkai that is so often on youtube. if you are stepping 90 degrees, this is an indication of how you should be in relation to your opponent. Think about it logically, you would not be attacked by someone kicking you chudan from the side. Kata performed as a solo drill needs a point of reference for your position in relation to your antagonist. So start facing your opponent then move 90 degrees and the distance then becomes real and your control over your opponent and follow up should be simple and unforced. most of the time the kata should not require altering, just roughing up a little. I am not suggesting that I know the original thinking behind the kata, but I believe each kata encapsulate a principle of combat, often a simple principle. I also believe that where a technique is performed slowly it is indicating that care or precision is required. ( moving from a gross motor skill to a fine motor skill) and that a jump is indicative of the energy and effort needed to throw your uke. I stress, this is just my belief and do not criticise or belittle others who do not hold the same views as long as they come to these beliefs through study and evidence rather than, " Thats how I was taught , therefore it must be correct". I think by questioning everything we strengthen our training and guard against sloppy thinking. We should not simply invent bunkai because it fits our physical abilities or pre-concieved ideas but rather think of habitual acts of violence or the reflexive way we have fought for millenia and the simplest ways to counter this. Overly flowery techniques, jumping kicks and intricate wrist locks should be scratched off our list or consigned to secondary status as being impractical and fraught with danger.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 14, 2012 19:08:54 GMT
I do agree with Tom about assuming the target area by the level of the punch. If you take a few moments of reflection it would appear that most "punches" in kata are aimed at chudan level ? This cannot be right if analysed dispassionately so we are left with the likelihood that the proceeding technique is used to bring the opponents head down to chudan level ? I know this is speculation but it is speculation with the advantage of common sense! A good illustration of this would be the opening sequence of heian shodan. If you are in close opposition to your opponent and exchanging blows, lets say, a clash of forearms is inevitable. if you use the gedan barai as an arm grab and step to the left sharply making "gedan barai", your opponent is pulled forward and off balance, bringing his head down to chudan level. Hold the opponents arm at hikite and step forward oi-tsuki, striking your opponent on the angle of the jaw just below the ear. No adjustment of the kata is required and it works ! I really enjoy looking further into the Kata and often wonder how far you can "stray" from the Kata form in applying different applications. When you do the basic bunkai of the above you block a kick but when you step forward Oi Zuki you are almost face to face when you are supposed to be punching them (unless they move back a little). I prefer to think of it like you describe above, or straying a bit your right hikite arm in Gedan Barai is pulling them forward and the Gedan Barai is striking their now lowered head or arm, the Oi Zuki could then turn into another strike or somehow setting them up for a throw as you turn 180 degrees. I think i've read this one somewhere before but it was possibly explained a bit better Just to add to what jimlukelkc was saying...When thinking about the bunkai implications (to steal steve's terminology) don't get too hung up about being fully compliant with the form as expressed in the solo kata . Combat is messy and the kata is showing you a set of combat principles or good combat behaviours.... So to take your example, the principle here is that by performing gedan Barai you are pulling your opponent down and by dropping into a "front stance" are using you weight to drag down on your opponents arm, thus dropping his head to a perfect height for your "chudan" punch into his jaw and a quick end to the fight...
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Post by th0mas on Mar 14, 2012 19:12:07 GMT
B*gger I just realised I basically repeated what jimlukelkc said but with different words... it must be good advice then :-)
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 21, 2012 9:24:48 GMT
One thing I would advise everyone to be contious of when trying to 'Fathom the Dance' is to remember that in many of the 'modern' versions of the Kata we study they have been standardised and this standardisation includes the use of modern versions of the stances that are considerably lower than the original stances used in the Okinawan 'Te' and even further back into the Chinese systems. Therefore this standardisation has change not only the trajectory hieght but aqlso the flightpath of many of the techniques. Therefore don't get hung up on 'the punch is chudan' etc as in the original forms they weren't always so firm in such matters. In essence if a Kata implication stays fundamentaqlly true to the general form of the Kata and it works then conswider your explorations to be both fruitful and an addition to your Karate arsenal. Also - don't always assume that your imaginary attacker is positioned exactly in front, or to the side, or exactly at 45% etc, If one moves away from such finite thinking it opens up a vast array of possibilities. To demonstrate this way of thinking I teach a possible application of the first two moves in Heain Shodan that results in the interception and throwing of an opponent attacking with a mae geri from a position approx 30% to your front left. In this sequence the gedan Barrai movement is no longer the common interpretation and the following chudan oitsuki is used as a throw not a punch. I have found that Dan grades enjoy this sequence as it helps them open the gates in their thinking that tend to mean they think in standard terms when looking for exactly what the Kata may be implying for the possible use of each and every movement. Just for fun see if you can work it out and at a later date I'll illustrate it for you all. Oh and Tom - you may well have done it with me in a class so no cheating HAHA! Enjoy!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 21, 2012 10:34:28 GMT
If I could add to what Steve has already suggested, close the distance down and do not start from a kumite type stance. It is also useful to look at the heian or pinan kata as practised by other styles, as there is often a change in angle or position of the hand that shows a difference in emphasis but a fundamental agreement in usage.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 21, 2012 12:41:27 GMT
top advice James - as usual!
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