|
Post by bryceifleming on Mar 23, 2012 1:21:20 GMT
Three years ago I suggested on another forum that the Japanese Shotokan represented a judicious editting of more traditional styles with removal of what I called unlikely or low percentage techniques. This was met with outrage and denial by the karateka who have drank the Kool-aid of the Okinawan mystique.
Here is is three years later and I now train in Shobayashi Shorin-ryu, which is, as far as I can tell, a fringe element ultra-orthodox Shorin-ryu style. It has been an eye opener, but now that I have got past the first blush of new karate, I am seeing value of what they teach. It is at least a historical journey.
The first kata one learns here is Seisan, of which their version is very long and truthfully, quite difficult. I am not sure what the heck they are thinking of by making it the beginner's kata: it has numerous stance and rhythm changes, a complex pattern with some repeating elements and some elements that are similar but not exactly the same and you have to apply exactly right breathing patterns to make it "just right". I note that the two Nidans I train with periodically have a LONG way to go before they would be considered demonstration ready on this kata.
The second series a student learns is the Naihanchi series. These three kata, once you run them numerous times, are basically archaic versions of Tekki. I personally believe the Tekki series are an improvement from the Naihanchi. The example I would like to point out is the sequence from Tekki where you step sideways, perform inside block, then simultaneous flowing block and down block and complete with an augmented upper cut (or backfist strike depending on your school). The Shorin style does it more sequentially: they do inside block, then simultaneous inside block and down block (like H3 or Jion), then do a huge looping arc with that inside block into an augmented strike.
If you look at this, the two interpretations are basically the same, especially if done at speed. The Tekki version merely says "why the hell do some stop action at the inside block, why not just flow on through and then hit the guy; its way faster". Clearly judicious and realistic editting.
One other interesting difference is the sword hand block. Shorin ryu typically performs the block in a stance call "Uke Ashi", which falls somewhere inbetween cat stance and back stance. Your front leg is on the ball of the foot but only slightly raised and more weighted than cat stance (less than kokutsu dachi though). The actual block is done with the hand jodan level and the forearm perfectly vertical, the other hand augmenting the blocking hand. Here is the trick though: they almost always continue through after a split second of kime into a lower grabbing action that falls into the position where Shotokan typically finishes the sword hand block. My assertion is that once again the Japanese looked at the block and decided that in reality you would catch the attacker limb as you advanced in, grab (or not) and drop into the low stable kokutsu-dachi. This would fit with some people's assertion that the best application for sword hand block in kokustu-dachi is an grab and control after an early interception. Still looks like good editting to me rather than "watering down the lethal techniques".
I have always believed that the basic simplicity of Shotokan karate represented the reality that complex techniques don't really work in real fights, so either Funakoshi Gichin or Funakoshi Gigo did some judicious editting to make the karate work better.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Mar 23, 2012 11:55:34 GMT
Bryce - great to see you are enjoying your venture into another style - However I would suggest (and I accept that this may not have been available to you) that Shotokan Karate - If studied with the right Instructors - is a very fluid style that includes (in my calculations about 75% more technigues, strategies etc than are taught in about 90% of Shotokan Dojo. Once the full Shotokan Arsenal is correctly Studied and trained in (note the two as they must co-exist) one will come to realise that Shotokan is a very efficient and versatile MA system. However apart from the sadly widespread failure to study the full system there is also a woefully common failure to train and study (and even understand : 'Closequarter work'. Many THINK they are practicing Closequarter work but an educated eye can very quickly evidence and then point out that the work they are doing is infact Mid to Long range material and thus they become overwhelmed and confused when they spar with someone whom is fully versed in 'getting up close and personal'. It is actually quite illuminating to see (or participate) in it However, things are a changing and there are many of us Old Timers whom have been teaching the full arsenal for some time and I can confidently state that (in the UK at least) things are improving. I have, over the last four decades) often purposely sought out and trained with other styles and it has always been a positive event but it has never made me feel that I need to shift styles - Instead it has often made me realise (when a little gem is shown to me - or an unfamiliar strategy etc) that 'We have this in the Shotokan system but we aren't giving it due attention' and I then 'come home' and work on it. However, we have to admit and accept that shotokan (and many other karate styles) is almost totally void when it comes to 'Groundwork'. Anyway, as said, it is great you are enjoying another style just sad that it appears that you haven't had access to the FULL Shotokan system but maybe one day we can entice you over here for one of the Friendship courses were you would (even though you have gone AWOL (LOL! ) be made very welcome
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Mar 23, 2012 12:56:02 GMT
I have worked out with guys from some "Okinawan" styles and they seem to be training in a style that is more about maintaining a traditional point of view over working with techniques that you can use.
Its kind of like training in a style of art that has long since passed away, but keeping the traditions alive. One could say that of all styles of Karate, but the fact is that most Shotokan schools/styles are way more useable than the strict form (read unusable) styles of most Okinawan clubs.
Reminds me of my Aikido practice when I was younger. I did Judo and Aikido and if I had to use only one style in a fight between the two...Judo wins hands down.
The delicate and precise moves simply dont work in a real world environment. While a life time of training in styles like Aikido and Okinawan Karate may make you able to defend yourself, the practice of solid basic/fundamental movements will make a better base to work from anyday!
Just my thinking by the way...and steve is right, we only use about 75% of what we could be using in our clubs as well. ONly when I grab a few seniors for some "fun training" Do we dip into the extra 25%.
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Mar 23, 2012 13:10:18 GMT
Bryce is training in Shorin-ryu because there are no Shotokan dojo in his area.
|
|
|
Post by bryceifleming on Mar 23, 2012 16:15:30 GMT
great to see you are enjoying your venture into another style - However I would suggest (and I accept that this may not have been available to you) that Shotokan Karate - If studied with the right Instructors - is a very fluid style that includes (in my calculations ) about 75% more technigues, strategies etc than are taught in about 90% of Shotokan Dojo. Yeah, you missed my point. I am not enjoying my excursion into Shorin karate. I did not change because of some percieved deficiency. I changed because this club is the only show in town (with the exception of a Goju club that had no space for me when I visitted: they are a family oriented dojo with a waiting list a mile long).
Kensei said it best: the traditional Okinawan dojos seem to be very focussed on maintaining the traditions rather than finding what works.
I thought I was pretty clear that I find Shotokan to be a superior style; simple, logical, and most likely highly effective compared to what I am experiencing now.
Don't get me wrong; there is some good in the Shorin ryu, but it is buried under tons of protocol
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Mar 25, 2012 14:13:28 GMT
Well Bryce - I am pleased that you did spot my 'caveat' but no worries because your post, once again, has created great debate which is what this site is about. I apologise for my (already noted as a possibilty ) Gaff LOL! Oh and go search out Young Alix's offer to write an article for the article section as it would be great to see one from you: Hint , Nudge, Plead, Order (in a friendly way ) Cajole, Beg and Pester. Teehee!
|
|
|
Post by bryceifleming on Mar 25, 2012 23:52:34 GMT
ONly when I grab a few seniors for some "fun training" Do we dip into the extra 25%.
That is an ongoing problem with Shotokan especially. That "fun training" to me is the stuff that actually makes the lights go on. An example might be taking a kata and finding excellent, simple bunkai against common attacks and then training it until it really works. There are all sorts of other examples too. The problem is (and one must question if this REALLY is a problem) that Shotokan likes to see a really high technical capability from all our students; that sort of technical capability only comes from intense training of the basics. Train the basics enough and there is practically no time to train "the fun stuff" (though, as I age, the basics are more enjoyable now; like a comfortable old shirt for weekend wear).
I suspect part of the bad reputation that Shotokan gets from the "real fighters" (MMA and the sort) comes from dabblers: guys that only stuck around long enough to do the basics and never saw the "fun stuff". The other side of the coin is that if you give students too much too early, they never really perfect the basics.
I made the mistake one time of opening up the brown belt/ black belt class to all belts on the condition that the junior belts had to just keep up as best they could without any expectation of the class being adjusted if they attended. I made it clear that the special training classes were focussed on getting brown and black belts some personal training time. The result was terrible and I learned my lesson. I ended up with a bunch of yellow through green belts who did a crappy Bassai dai, terrible Sochin and a mediocre Heian series. I had one yellow belt who would go so far as to roll her eyes if she was corrected on Heian Nidan and intimate that all this Heian business was just so below her now that she knew Sochin (which she did in zenkutsu-dachi because she just could not grasp the difference between the two stances). Sensei Jorgensen was way less than impressed when he saw that Yellow belts version of any kata much less Sochin. You live and learn.
Try this for difficult to fathom: I have trained Shorin-ryu for four months now (on and off since I have had health issues). I have learned six kata and maybe five basic kihon techniques. Taking into account that there is not much they can teach me about kihon (though they do stuff REALLY different than I am used to), I am still amazed at 6 kata. Thank goodness I have a really good memory (except I do tend to mix up Naihanchi kata with Tekki and Pinnan with Heian).
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Mar 29, 2012 12:45:51 GMT
I suspect part of the bad reputation that Shotokan gets from the "real fighters" (MMA and the sort) comes from dabblers: guys that only stuck around long enough to do the basics and never saw the "fun stuff". The other side of the coin is that if you give students too much too early, they never really perfect the basics. I agree, the fact is that if you want to "make it work" you need time in, and in our society the black belt is the goal, not knowing what you are doing so you "are a black belt" just enough that you can "own a black belt". We do a TONE of Kihon and Heian Katas at our club and it often chasses away the "black belt chasers" and wanna be tough guys. however we also have a great record when it comes to kumite and tournaments.....why...because Sensei D believes that to make a fighter you have to start at the ground and work your way up...and take your time! Try this for difficult to fathom: I have trained Shorin-ryu for four months now (on and off since I have had health issues). I have learned six kata and maybe five basic kihon techniques. Taking into account that there is not much they can teach me about kihon (though they do stuff REALLY different than I am used to), I am still amazed at 6 kata. Thank goodness I have a really good memory (except I do tend to mix up Naihanchi kata with Tekki and Pinnan with Heian). That seems to be way to fast. I took six months of Empi/Hangetsu training when I was a brown belt to even come close to grasping the two Katas...thats two in SIX months. But standards may vary in different styles and different clubs.
|
|
|
Post by ruestir on Mar 29, 2012 18:21:37 GMT
I may teach multiple kata, but I don't expect my students to remember more than the one that's required for their grade, their previous grades and Sanchin. Six in just a few weeks seems like a lot to me.
|
|
|
Post by fleur on Mar 30, 2012 0:49:17 GMT
You sound as if you are an advanced karateka. Apart from Sanchin the other kata you have been taught you mentioned were the 3 Naihanchi and I suspect the remaining two are of the Pinan series. If this is the case I suspect they believe you have the skill level to adjust your existing knowledge of Tekki and Heian accordingly to suit the new style.
It's not like they are teaching 6 new kata (unless of have assumed incorrectly above) to a white belt. They wouldn't do that. They obviously believe you are capable of the adjustment.
I too moved styles and yes it feels way weird for quite some time. I thought it would only take about 3-4 months to transition. I was wrong, it took about a year. Be patient and don't fight everything just because it is different to what you currently know and are comfortable with. Change is hard and slightly uncomfortable. Relax and know it will take time to transition, don't fight it just because it's different. After a while you might just enjoy it. Take care and all the best with your journey.
|
|
|
Post by bryceifleming on Mar 30, 2012 1:19:07 GMT
You sound as if you are an advanced karateka. Apart from Sanchin the other kata you have been taught you mentioned were the 3 Naihanchi and I suspect the remaining two are of the Pinan series. It's not like they are teaching 6 new kata (unless of have assumed incorrectly above) to a white belt. They wouldn't do that. They obviously believe you are capable of the adjustment. I am not sure how "advanced" I consider myself. I have been Dan ranked for fifteen years and have taught for most of that time. Unfortunately, all of that time has been spent with one club and with exposure to just a very few Sensei (less as I aged and found family and professional demands trumped seminar attendance). It's easy to consider yourself a big fish when the small pond is all you know. So far I have covered Seisan, Pinan Shodan (H2), Ananku (shorter version of Seisan in my opinion), the three Naihanchi (not appreciably different from Tekki) and Gojushiho (an very different amalgum of 54 steps Dai and Sho). The issue is not so much the shift to Shorin but to this version of Shorin: it really is quite altered from the more common versions of Shorin ryu one sees out on the net. These guys don't seem to have a Sanchin kata: the one I learned elsewhere was a basic Goju variant. I am blessed with a near photographic memory, so the learning of the new kata is not really an issue. I just would like some time to digest and play with the kata a bit to get my own feel for them. On the other hand, I would hate to hold up the rest of the tiny club while I come up to speed, so I am going with the flow. I am enjoying it for the most part already, but my comparison remains fair: I still believe that Shotokan represents an IMPROVED evolution of Okinawan karate. A good example of improvement is the Shotokan take on breathing: our breathing is far more natural and easy to learn. Shotokan breathing (forced exhalation from the abdomen coordinated with the movement with automatic inhalation on relaxation of kime is what I learned and teach) is almost automatic for most karateka. Shotokan breathing actually helps coordinate movement and can be easily applied in sparring, kihon and kata equally. The Shorin breathing I am learning has to be thought about constantly and actually ends up with me holding my breath for long moments during the kata and what not. It does not make sense to me and I am not sure how it ever will.
|
|
|
Post by fleur on Mar 30, 2012 1:46:03 GMT
Certainly sounds like a challenge, that's for sure! Be the eternal student. Be a sponge. Enjoy.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Mar 30, 2012 8:11:45 GMT
Welcome back Fleur!! We all thought5 you had disapeared up a Mountain with your Gi and six months army rations!! LOL! For the newer Members Fleur is a VERY adventurous Lady Karateka who definitely travels to expand here Knowledge and stduy/training experiences - pick her brains !!
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on May 29, 2012 10:33:14 GMT
. (The delicate and precise moves simply dont work in a real world environment. While a life time of training in styles like Aikido and Okinawan Karate may make you able to defend yourself, the practice of solid basic/fundamental movements will make a better base to work from anyday!) As we are taught even within kata. Most of the techniques in kata employ gross motor skills.Where fine motor skills are required this is indicated in the kata by slow deliberate moves. Basically it is saying] " care and prescision are required at this point "
|
|
|
Post by fleur on May 29, 2012 10:50:06 GMT
Jim - you been drinking? WTF Have no idea what point your trying to make. Are you trying to say that other styles don't practise - solid, basic kihon?
|
|
|
Post by elmar on May 29, 2012 11:15:49 GMT
... The Shorin breathing I am learning has to be thought about constantly and actually ends up with me holding my breath for long moments during the kata and what not. It does not make sense to me and I am not sure how it ever will. Now this is interesting to me, Bryce. On another board, it was said that there is an advantage to completely decoupling the breath from the movement, so that any movement can be made with strength and speed no matter what phase the breathing is in (probably provided that the shell of the core muscles is firmed and you breathe within that cylinder of tension). I have played with both in-breath and out-breath versions of moving, and it changes things. In Sanchin (Oyama's version from Kyokuyshin), as I learned it, the individual isolated steps forward are done without breathing at all (you are in the out-breath pause phase). I have also looked at "step-breathing" where you fractionate the breath executing two kime during the phase, either in or out.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on May 30, 2012 13:38:00 GMT
Fleur! How dare you Madame?! The fault is mine, I did not use the quote button for the first part of my reply which was a quote from Kensei, my reply was "As we are taught even within kata. Most of the techniques in kata employ gross motor skills.Where fine motor skills are required this is indicated in the kata by slow deliberate moves. Basically it is saying " care and prescision are required at this point " I therefore believe you should re-direct both your question and ire towards Kensei lol x ( As to the drinking? Probably )
|
|
|
Post by fleur on May 31, 2012 0:55:15 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on May 31, 2012 8:33:29 GMT
Look at Minoru Higa sensei and the 'Kyudokan'. It is essentially the Shorin Ryu that Shotokan would recognise. And looking at it may open a few doors or add a few light bulbs. From what I have been told by ex members of KWF and JKA - his karate is well worth the look!
|
|