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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 25, 2012 16:28:27 GMT
Do any of the instructors teach self-defence separately to your normal class? Do you perhaps think it is impossible to teach due to the unpredictable nature of conflict ? Or perhaps you teach a mixed class and believe it inappropriate to to teach to children ? Do you teach males differently to females ? If not, why not?
I ask because a recent post elsewhere sort of reinforced some ideas I have on this subject and thought I would try to get a debate going. For instance, statistics apparently show young men ( up to age around 24 ) are most likely, in the UK, to be killed in a violent confrontation, usually involving alcohol and or drugs, by being stabbed. This will usually be perpetrated by someone unknown to them.
Women are also most likely to be killed by being stabbed, but usually in their own home by someone they know.
Children are mostly killed by adults but are of course most affected by bullying issues and this is the only area that martial arts taught to children can realistically be in any way useful.
So, do you feel self-protection can be effectively taught in a normal Karate class , across all groups? Do you teach knife awareness, situational awareness etc. If not, do you believe karate to be basically ineffective as a serious system of self-defence?
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Post by malk103 on Mar 25, 2012 17:45:33 GMT
.......Children are mostly killed by adults but are of course most affected by bullying issues and this is the only area that martial arts taught to children can realistically be in any way useful..... I personally think that Karate can help with all self defence situations, even along with the ethos of avoiding trouble or crossing the street. Our club regularly teaches knife defences and all manner of breaking away from grabs, throwing someone off of you from the floor, reactions to attack, hand/arm locks etc. Even if they do something rather than just freeze and take it. On the practical side I was teaching a large class of mostly teens on Friday and it's difficult to hold their attention and sometimes to keep full control. I am still learning to teach and have my own small class but was covering for my Sensei while he was away. I would have liked to have done some more Kumite/SD taken from the Heian Kata but after the 5 step took ages I switched and went back to line work. There is also the danger of one of your students going over to the dark side and using some of the SD techniques against others, in addition to that you may have a student break someones arm or crush something vital if they were "lightly" bullied. Teaching control and proportionate response should also be part of the package. Someone asked me on Friday what Nukite was used for, I explained that it's mostly an attack against a soft area including the throat and they responded with "to crush their windpipe?" so I hastily had to explain that just by putting pressure on their throat would hopefully deter them from continuing the attack. It's a lot easier with adults to hint that if slight pressure wasn't working or you feared for your life then to hit them as hard as possible would be the obvious thing to do.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 25, 2012 20:32:53 GMT
..... For instance, statistics apparently show young men ( up to age around 24 ) are most likely, in the UK, to be killed in a violent confrontation, usually involving alcohol and or drugs, by being stabbed. This will usually be perpetrated by someone unknown to them. Women are also most likely to be killed by being stabbed, but usually in their own home by someone they know. Children are mostly killed by adults but are of course most affected by bullying issues and this is the only area that martial arts taught to children can realistically be in any way useful. ........ Self Defence/Self Protection should, I believe, focus on the most likely situations an individual will have to deal with. Personally, when looking at the statistics for each subject group (men/women/children etc)I would focus on serious injury and assaults (including sexual) rather than deaths. I suspect that the numbers of incidents of assault leading to injury vs Deaths are in orders of magnitude. Certainly in the UK at any rate. Working on strategies to enable escape and avoidance would seem to me the best "value for money".
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Post by tomobrien on Mar 25, 2012 20:45:08 GMT
If your'e not doin SD, your'e not doin MA! Sport is nice & warm, fuzzy & fun. We train to protect ourselves & our loved ones above all else!
Thanks, Tom
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 26, 2012 19:05:28 GMT
Good stuff, just the sort of reactions I would expect. However some misunderstandings here I feel. The point of focusing on cause of death by violence was to illustrate the difference in situation between men and women. It is therefore surely important to take this into account when teaching? As a further illustration let me tell you how we tackle children being bullied. Under very controlled conditions we will have the adults or older kids partner the younger ones. They will act as the aggressor and we give them as realistic as possible responses to practice. We will always emphasise running away as first and even secondary options and use of voice to attract attention, getting help and reporting bullying. I have to say , the hardest group to teach sd in my experience are women. Not from any chauvinistic point of view, just from the viewpoint that to make it realistic, they should have a stronger, preferably male aggressor and the type of close quarter attacks necessary for realism can lead to embarrassment ( on both sides ), self-consciousness and leave you open to accusations of abuse and inappropriateness. I agree that if you are not doing self-defence, you are not doing MA. It needs to be real though. I would be interested in how you teach defence against a knife for instance? The reality is that if you are attacked by someone wielding a knife, the best you can hope for is he is inexperienced in using a knife and the resignation that you will get cut. Minimising the severity should be your aim. We do a disservice if we build false confidence in flowery wrist locks and dangerous throws. It is therefore important in my opinion to teach students how to recognise if their attacker is skilled with a knife, to understand the damage that can be done and just how quickly you can end up badly cut or dead. SD training for young men,apart from knife awareness, needs to include "adrenalin dump" type training ( not just men), fighting more than one assailant, fighting to get up from the ground and resisting going down in the first place. Vocal re-direction or diffusion is often neglected too, as is training for very short, very intense bursts of aggressive response.
I know in most cases I am preaching to the converted here and most of you will already include most of the above in your teaching. I would be interested in hearing how you do it and if you use any particular technique or training method not listed here.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 27, 2012 2:21:53 GMT
to be fair to the newer members here I should begin by stating that I know James personally, have had the pleasure of teaching as a Guest Instructor at his Dojo and staying as a guest in his home (oft discussing things MA into the wee small hours so yes I am a little biased - so with that out of the way: James gives sound advice here folks and if it does no more than make you really take stock of the training you provide for your students then it is a very good thing. As a professional Violence Management Consultant (which is in many ways a very different role than my work as a Karate Instructor) I would add the following points for you to consider: 1. Make yourself conversant with the CURRENT Law, in your Country and Area, in relation to Self Defence (include in your research the Protection of others, Protection of Property and acting to stop a breach of the Law) 2. Make it absolutely clear to your students that you CANNOT give them absolutes in that if A. happens do B. and C. will be the result. 3. Explain to them the very important Primary and Secondary elements of violence management and the FACT that all Violence and Dangerousness Management (VDM) IS Chaos Management and therefore they have to understand that prevention (Forward planning) is vitally important to eliminate or diminish the elements of the chaotic nature of violence that can be reasonably foreseen. 4. Deeply important is the concept of 'The Funnel of diminishing opportunity' and the trained skill of 'Informed Intuition' that with the correct training will bring the subconscious mind into play and thus assist up to, during and even after a violent event. 5. A huge part of teaching Self Defence is to limit yourself to what you really know about and thus avoid teaching theoretical nonsense - expand your knowledge and never assume that because you hold a Dan rank in Karate that you 'know' what to teach in terms of VDM. A diligent study of Karate IS a marvellous way to improve your self defence capabilities I can assure you BUT research and training with truly experienced VDM consultants at special courses every so often is also required before you can claim to have the reguired knowledge to teach special Self Defence Courses. You could end up doing more harm than good if you don't 'top up' your knowledge base. AFter decades of doing this kind of consultancy I can assure you that I have witnessed a great deal of absolute nonsense being taught at SD Classes but equally I can assure you that thier is very sound information and quality training available if you put that extra time and study in. James has opened up an important topic here and it will be very interesting and informative to watch it as we debate it.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 29, 2012 15:17:39 GMT
1. Make yourself conversant with the CURRENT Law, in your Country and Area, in relation to Self Defence (include in your research the Protection of others, Protection of Property and acting to stop a breach of the Law) 2. Make it absolutely clear to your students that you CANNOT give them absolutes in that if A. happens do B. and C. will be the result. 3. Explain to them the very important Primary and Secondary elements of violence management and the FACT that all Violence and Dangerousness Management (VDM) IS Chaos Management and therefore they have to understand that prevention (Forward planning) is vitally important to eliminate or diminish the elements of the chaotic nature of violence that can be reasonably foreseen. 4. Deeply important is the concept of 'The Funnel of diminishing opportunity' and the trained skill of 'Informed Intuition' that with the correct training will bring the subconscious mind into play and thus assist up to, during and even after a violent event. 5. A huge part of teaching Self Defence is to limit yourself to what you really know about and thus avoid teaching theoretical nonsense - expand your knowledge and never assume that because you hold a Dan rank in Karate that you 'know' what to teach in terms of VDM.
All of the above are very salient points but can any of you add to this list? I will make a further point to see if we can stimulate debate. Recent research suggests that what we term the unconscious and we perceive as kind of working in the background without us being aware of it is actually much more important and active than previously thought. It seems that even when we think we are making conscious decisions around strategy and planning, in fact our sub-conscious is governing those decisions almost completely. It is linked directly to learning and we may tell ourselves we did this or that because we made a conscious decision to do so, but in fact the outcome will be decided by our own auto-pilot.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 29, 2012 20:12:50 GMT
Whilst it is going to make great debate James - I would not go so far as to state it as FACT that our 'aouto pilots' control things as I know with absolutely no doubt that i have made many very conscious and coherent decisions in violent situations that were based on what i was faced with and how I (knowingly) decided what action to take. I can however accept the 'aouto pilot theory' when things go off but that is IMHO a condition I refer to as 'informed intuation' were info is being recieved and reacted to so fast it is arguably not conscious decision making in the normal sense - hope you get my drift! Oh and my list was to add to your sensible info not a challenge to it! - and i could add volumes to it if required but felt i'd post it to add to discussion and debate as you have raised a very important and oft overlooked aspect of the role of a Karate instructor
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 30, 2012 6:38:17 GMT
Steve it looks like we have this one all to ourselves here! I had not taken your list as a challenge I assure you. All of your points spot on. Get on to i-player and take a look at the programme Horizon. There is a particular part of that programme in which they ask people to try to catch a remote controlled helicopter in a large enclosed space. They used eye tracking tech to work out how people were doing it. All of them professed to have had various conscious strategies to achieve this but it turns out that the sub-conscious did all the work and all of them used the same strategy, no matter what their own perception of being in conscious control was. I suppose that my point is that you may make a conscious decision to act, as in fight or flight but most of what happens after that will be governed by your sub-conscious based on ingrained and almost instinctive behaviour. Making your training ingrained and instinctive has to be therefore the biggest challenge. Anyhow , as no-one else seems to want any input here, by all means , add volumes!
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 30, 2012 8:03:06 GMT
AHHH! get your point now - I have termed this (in my Consultancy work) 'Informed Intuition' and use techniques relating to really seeing what is in front of you in your Kumite Drills to make your recognition of the visual, Kiniesthetic and audio info you pick up become instinctive and thus your responses better 'informed' and 'intuitive which is - i think - exactly the process you describe. Students have told me that after doing this process for a while they find that they suddenly 'react' and throw in a 'stonker' of a counter-attack that appears to be 'without thought or prior consideration' as it happens so fast BUT they have this weird sensation that they 'feel' that they did in fact systematically analyse the situation, respond to the stimuli presented and 'decide' what to do = Informed Intuition! As for the 'Volumes' as you are on my 'complimentary free copy' of my book you'll get it all then LOL! - Have a big photoshoot for the book coming up soon which i am looking forward to! Have some cracking Karateka coming along to be my 'models'
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 3, 2012 12:51:12 GMT
There is that aspect to it Steve but also we can think of the subconscious as a constantly monitoring auto-pilot. It will automatically select the strategy that a learned experience confirms is the best, no matter what we consciously think we are doing. The experiment with the small remote controlled helicopter confirmed that all participants related different strategies that they were consciously using. However it was shown that in fact they orientated themselves along an axis defined by the background and that eventually they all captured the model by the same method. We can tell ourselves we did this or that but in fact we are obeying subconscious cues all the time. Knowing those strategies would give us a huge advantage in being able to predict the response of others.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 4, 2012 16:01:07 GMT
No real disagreements Jim except experience has shown me that there are NO absolutes in combat and hence i am a little in disagreement in the absolutes you claim. Other research is less absolute about what you claim. I am just preparing an article on the matter from a very different route - but ultimately not dissimilar overall outcome. I hope to post it soon
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 5, 2012 10:04:16 GMT
I completely agree that there are no absolutes in combat and I have perhaps written this badly as I was merely making the point the programme made to open up debate and to posit the theory that we are not making the conscious decisions we think we are. I do however agree with many of the points it makes. For instance I have at times driven a familiar route by car and afterwards had little recollection of how I arrived at my destination. It appears the subconscious can perform quite complex and high function tasks independent of conscious thought.
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Post by kensei on Apr 5, 2012 13:28:22 GMT
Jumping in a tad late here...but thats my nature I do teach a self preservation course (neet name eh) and that is for non-Karate students....however I dont teach separate self defense stuff in Karate...its all Self defence if you are teaching good karate and avoiding a pure sport curriculum. Now for the debate, can sport/Shiai karate teach you Self Defence Karate/Goshindo? ?
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Post by ruestir on Apr 5, 2012 18:07:02 GMT
There was a great discussion over on Iain Abernethy's site that talked about that James. Iain used a Venn diagram to illustrate how there are translatable skills between fighting/self-defense/martial art, but that does not mean that fighting=self-defense=martial arts. So, can you learn skills from kumite that will help you defend yourself? Absolutely you can, but I think we can all agree that being able to fight is not all there is to self defense as they really have different end goals. It's kind of like the difference between target shooting, hunting and a gun battle. You're going from shooting inanimate objects, to taking a life to finally trying to take a life while someone else is trying to take yours. Translatable skills to be sure, but definitely not equal. Here's the link to Iain's discussion for anyone who's interested. iainabernethy.co.uk/content/sd-fighting-martial-arts
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 5, 2012 18:59:13 GMT
Sorry if I'm being a little slow here but isn't that what we are trying to achieve by constant and repetitive training, to make our reaction a "familiar route" such that it happens (apparently) without conscious thought. I doubt that you actually do the drive "subconsciously" any more than you would fight that way but the familiarity allows the action without noticing the thought process. Just a thought, I have no expertise in how the "mind" works, except as an owner of an original 1950's model (although it feels more like a timeshare sometimes these days ), but I would have thought that "subconscious" covered instinctive reactions rather than trained reactions.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Apr 5, 2012 19:37:45 GMT
Some very good points here: Learn what laws are applicable & teach what you know & are comfortable with. In our area `you have the absolute right to defend yourself` however in so saying this can only be with equal or slightly greater force than your attacker & of course you can pursue your attacker. So you can break the arm of someone who attacks with a weapon, but you shouldn`t go that far with someone who just tries to slap you! Also to me true self defence is close distance, if it`s kicking range, this is also try & get away range, unless of course your facing a gun! Regardless of the weapon, a good part of defending one self is controlling the weapon, so I spend time teaching my students trapping when we focus on self defence. Also as mentioned close distance, so working on closing the gap, knees, elbows, head-butts, joint manipulation, throws & following through with a finishing move. Then `get out of there`!!! To me too many focus in on` ippon`. The mind set of` I got him it`s over`. We need to focus on follow through & be prepared for continuous attacks until the opponent can`t attack anymore or I made my chance to escape. The problem with sparring at tournament level is that we so often program our selves that `I got him, it`s over`. Even with zanshin we are staying aware in case the opponent attacks again. In self defence we might need to go so far as to make sure he `can`t` attack again. In so saying, to me just as important as showing `if he does this, you might do that`, we need to instil the attitude of being prepared to continue with determination, until we know we are safe. Be prepared to hurt him, or if serious enough end their life. That is hard for some to fathom, but you have to be able to focus on the ending right from the begining. Right off the bat I like to think that my mind set is to the idea of `you have a knife, I`m breaking your arm` or` you have a gun, one of us is dying & I can`t let it be me`.. Without mental toughness, self defence wont work!!! Osu Paul B
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 6, 2012 2:25:26 GMT
Use a real knife rather than a rubber one. Grind a real one down so it doesn't cut so easily. The difference is mostly psychological. When the light shines off the live blade it's a different intimidation. It does hurt if you get stabbed with tho. Use a plastic (wiffle) bat @ hit the guy if it doesn't work! Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 7, 2012 15:31:46 GMT
Use a real knife rather than a rubber one. Grind a real one down so it doesn't cut so easily. The difference is mostly psychological. When the light shines off the live blade it's a different intimidation. It does hurt if you get stabbed with tho. Use a plastic (wiffle) bat @ hit the guy if it doesn't work! Thanks, Tom I have a little problem with this Tom - in your case I know students would be well supervised and working at a safe pace - DON'T try this at home though folks unless you GENUINELY know what your doing!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Apr 7, 2012 16:45:28 GMT
One seminar that I took with a well known weapons defence expert, we used water soluble markers ( like you would use on a white board ), you hold them & use them like a knife, if you get marked that signifies a cut. A lot of fun, but it can be embarrassing on how many times you get marked. When your done just wash away the cuts!! Osu Paul B
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Post by kensei on Apr 8, 2012 11:53:15 GMT
many moons ago my instructor used to demonstrate with a real knife. One day he was "Attacked" while doing a demo in our China town..the lad jumped at him and was kicked, fell and almost killed himself falling on the knife. My instructor held him by his belt and the knife cut just a hair into his skin.
Moral of the story...dont play with knives...even dull ones.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 8, 2012 12:14:13 GMT
Whilst doing a Demo with a real knife - via a pure accident - my Instructor damn near severed his fingers!
However, I did once take a Knife Defence Course with an expert and under that kind of supervision it can be alot safer but you still come away with no doubt that knives are DEADLY - at (potentially) ALL TIMES! BE VERY CAREFUL!!
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 8, 2012 13:42:40 GMT
Problem is that if you don't play with real knives you end up very much with that false sense of security that we see in a lot of self defence training where everything is very safe and you end up taking risks that'll probably get you killed. As you say, "don't play with knives" is probably the best advice BUT if you are going to play with knives you need to learn how to do it properly or not at all. The guy I used to train with (now sadley departed) would do live blade training but it was very much a slow progression from the rubber practice knife through strips of wood painted up to look the part (which still hurt if somebody "stabs" you with one) onto blunted knives before any live blade work was carried out. I never went as far a live blade training but went far enough to know that knives can be vary scary things and you don't play with them on a casual basis. As an aside as this isn't really a "knife threat" thread, for those that do fancy a play try doing your knife disarms, grab, locks and holds with your hands and forearms covered in baby oil, this is a reasonable simulation of the effect of trying to do these techniques covered in blood (which is a high probability) and see how well they work then. Also, as previously said, try having somebody attack you with a marker pen (not an "I step in and stab whislt you do your defence but a proper frenzied "knife" attack) whilst wearing a white t-shirt and see how you look after a couple of seconds. That's not to say that there is nothing you can do against a knife and there is a big difference between a "knife threat" which is a containable situation in many cases and a "knife attack" which is genuinley a matter of life and death! My advice would be "don't play with knives BUT if you feel you must then find someone who really knows what they are talking about (not me ) and train seriously" Real self defence training isn't a hobby!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 8, 2012 16:50:49 GMT
Spot on Bob - as you are aware, I will introduce weapons into training BUT only in a manner that they may give you 'pain' but not damage - a very different process. Although have to say it was quite spectacular watching the said implement 'Crumble' upon contact with you! - and then the award of it to you at end of course. Seriously though Folks - although a simple Gyaku Tsuki could Kill you (fact!) knives etc a several notches up on the 'kill you by accident' scale BE VERY CAREFUL!
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 8, 2012 17:21:05 GMT
As they say "where there's no sense...... " Does give me a good story for my lads as well
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Post by kensei on Apr 9, 2012 12:07:48 GMT
I learned three things from the defensive training in the Queens Canadian armed self defense program...
One, From Sheeth to planted in your neck/guts/ heart a knife is much quicker and way more deadly than that fancy pistol you have in your holster! the knife in the hands of someone that knows how to use it...deadly!
Two, The knife in the hands of a youthful thug can be just as dangerous and do just as much damage as any weapon and intent does not matter, accidents happen more because its not seen as being as dangerous as a gun would be.
Three, If you have your side arm drawn at the time that you see someone holding a knife move towards you, aim and pull your trigger till they stop moving towards you because a knife in the hand of an agressive attacker is going to stop you just as fast as a gun.
Dont screw about with knives, especially if police are involved, they are taught basically the same things. Its no joke and if you want to learn how to handle one, go to a pro for it, dont read a book nor try to learn on your own with a buddy...someone is going to get hurt or die!
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