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Post by maico18z on Apr 13, 2012 18:45:43 GMT
We have a discussion group meeting this weekend and one of the topics has be stumped. I've looked all over the web and tried searching the forum but haven't come across and info. Here's the question(s): Supposedly, all the yoko geri keage in the Heian Katas were originally mae geri. Again, supposedly Funakoshi changed them from mae geri to yoko keage when he brought them from Okinawa to Japan. What was the reason for this? In fact yoko keage was not used in any shotokan kata such as Kanku and Gankaku. Why was this so? Hate to ask as it seems as if I'm cheating but I'm really stumped on this one and hope some of you guys can help. Thanks in advance. Guy Coulston
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Post by malk103 on Apr 13, 2012 19:01:12 GMT
My only guesses would be to add a mixture of kicks as you've already covered Mae Geri in Nidan (or the original Shodan), my worse guess would be so that the Kata could end on the same spot it started, I have read that this is why the angle of some moves were changed so that large classes wouldn't drift if repeating the Kata. Probably way off the mark but worth considering.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 13, 2012 21:26:40 GMT
Maybe the answer is in the question so to speak?
Look at the technique(s) prior to and after the mae geri in the original Heian/Pinan katas and see if yoko geri is a more "fitting" technique to replace them?
Conversely look at the now Heian kata and ask yourself if yoko geri would be more "fitting" to the mae geri that we perform?
I think the effectiveness of the technique is more important than if we end up on the same spot!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by maico18z on Apr 13, 2012 21:45:28 GMT
Yes, I thought of that as well. The yoko keage in Heian Nidan for example, if it were a Mae Geri, and if you were kicking in the same direction as the keage, you would have to turn to the rear, turning your back on the other "opponent". Where as, with the keage, you are able to kick the opponent coming from behind you and you're still able to see the other opponent now coming from your left. Of course I'm talking about the opening moves of Heain Nidan
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Post by robbo78 on Apr 13, 2012 21:59:58 GMT
Hi I know a little about the history but It is believed that Gichin Funakoshi was the one who incorporated originally the mae geri into the Katas but it was his son Yoshitaka Funakoshi who developed yoko geri keage and obviously thought that they worked better so replaced the mae geri in certain kata. And for those who dont know he also developed Mawashi geri, Yoko geri kekomi, fumikiri(cutting side kick), ushiro ura mawashi geri and ushiro geri kekomi. I believe the reason why the keage's were introduced into the kanku and gankaku kata was for competition purposes. This infomation was gathered through my own research over the past few years!
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Post by nathanso on Apr 14, 2012 6:53:06 GMT
Yes, I thought of that as well. The yoko keage in Heian Nidan for example, if it were a Mae Geri, and if you were kicking in the same direction as the keage, you would have to turn to the rear, turning your back on the other "opponent". Where as, with the keage, you are able to kick the opponent coming from behind you and you're still able to see the other opponent now coming from your left. Of course I'm talking about the opening moves of Heain Nidan Not if if you did a maegiri with the support foot parallel to the front as with the side kick, like in this shito version .
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Post by fleur on Apr 14, 2012 9:55:00 GMT
Agreed with Robert, the only reason for the change was to introduce new kicks and make the kata's more dynamic in the their opinion. And yes, in the original Pinan you do turn completely to the rear to deal with an attack coming from the rear, and then turn back around to the front.
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Post by malk103 on Apr 14, 2012 17:32:51 GMT
Looking at the applications may also give us clues, from my brief investigation the move before Keage could be interpreted as grabing the attackers left arm and pulling it towards your left hip whilst being side on to them, then the Keage and Uraken as a dual strike whilst you control their arm and are pulling them off balance. As far as i'm aware the Kata doesn't have to flow in a continuous fighting sequence, rather a catalogue of smaller sequences, as you wouldn't normally turn your back on someone you've just hit unless you were sure they were out of the fight.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 15, 2012 12:49:26 GMT
Ahem! Both kicks work equally well, it is just a question of angle and emphasis and in some cases mae-geri works better. You are not turning to face another opponent! I am frustrated that this sort of nonsense is still being peddled. Nor are you being attacked from the side, face your opponent . The angle suggests your position in relation to your attacker, so if you are turned at 90 degrees, you start facing your opponent and end up at 90 degrees when executing technique. There are of course applications when being attacked from behind but you start that way. A possible example of this would be the opening moves of Yondan. Look at pinan kata from Wado etc and see that the difference in performance is every bit as practical as Shotokan and there is usually only a slight difference in execution.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 15, 2012 16:07:42 GMT
The answers to all this are in Conversations with the Master - where Nakayama Sensei discusses the period when they where 'standardising Shotokan Karate, the problems this caused and how they went about it all - an interesting read! Nakayama Sensei was responsible for many of the changes and even the introduction of new techniques that he picked up in his period abroad - Gyaku Mawashi Geri for example! It was, to use a term, the gestation period and the subsequent birth of our style. I'll find my copy and let you all have the ISBN Number. OSU!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 15, 2012 16:58:29 GMT
Hi to all Hear we go "Conversations with the Masters" Masatoshi Nakayama by Randell G Hassell. ISBN-10:0911921001 or ISBN-13:0911921007 from Amazon. Alternatively try Mike Burton at www.monabooks.co.uk who is based on Anglesey. He has some fine reading material when it comes to Martial Arts, in particular Shotokan. Best Regards Allan
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 15, 2012 17:04:27 GMT
Nice one Allan - thanks for that!
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Post by th0mas on Apr 15, 2012 17:41:44 GMT
Damn! missed this one.. I really like discussing these types of questions, but it would appear that Steve and Jim have beaten me too it...
I get bout half way through the thread, get really excited about responding and then realise that what I was going to say has been covered near the end <sigh>
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Post by th0mas on Apr 15, 2012 17:54:03 GMT
...just as an aside though, I believe yoko geri keage and yoko Geri kekomi are just overly formalised versions of the same "thrusting/stamping kick" that might have originally been performed prior to Nakiyama's changes/adaptions.
Applications for the kick would have been aimed at the thigh and below and may have resulted in stepping, using all your weight, on the opponents leg in question.
Nowadays we make a distinction between the Flick, thrust and stamping aspects of the technique but I imagine originally you would emphasise whichever aspect is most appropriate given the situation. I also believe the advent of head-height kicking has also driven a bit of innovation as new targets appear which may require either a more thrusting or more flicking kick.
anyway that's my t'peneth worth.
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Post by maico18z on Apr 16, 2012 17:37:47 GMT
Thanks for all your responses, they were a great help. I'll certainly look for the Masters book. To Jim Luke, the "opponent" I was referring to was from Karate-Do Kyohan. Funakoshi says that just prior to the keage in Heian Nidan, that you sense an opponent to your left, (which would put that opponent behind you if you turned and executed a mae geri instead of the keage). So, he does not say keage instead of mae geri as you will turn your back on the opponent, that was just my 4th kyu mind trying to explain to myself the reason behind executing a keage instaed of a mae geri
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Post by th0mas on Apr 16, 2012 19:55:30 GMT
Thanks for all your responses, they were a great help. I'll certainly look for the Masters book. To Jim Luke, the "opponent" I was referring to was from Karate-Do Kyohan. Funakoshi says that just prior to the keage in Heian Nidan, that you sense an opponent to your left, (which would put that opponent behind you if you turned and executed a mae geri instead of the keage). So, he does not say keage instead of mae geri as you will turn your back on the opponent, that was just my 4th kyu mind trying to explain to myself the reason behind executing a keage instaed of a mae geri Ooooo I can answer this one ...Well actually, I am not entirely convinced with the interpretation/translation of what Funakoshi says with regards to the position of your opponent or the presence of "another opponent". Not having a translated copy infront of me make this somewhat difficult. However...I think a good analogy of kata is as a library of combat principles demonstrated through a series of application examples. The Kata are designed to teach you good combat behaviours rather than necessarily a series of techniques for every potential threat you may face (they would have to be extremely long if that were the case). The general concensus is that the solo kata tends to show applications against a single opponent and as this is a solo Kata your moves are in relationship to your opponent not in the direction of attack.. i.e. in the heian kata's you are not being attacked from four different directions but rather shifting and moving around your opponent who starts in front of you. This is based on the rather obvious premise that your opponent should be at the centre of your focus, as facing away from a person intend on harming you is not a good strategy for self-protection. The difference between the side kick vs the front kick is just peculiar to the emphasis placed on how different styles would hold and then kick the opponents leg. A front kick is employed in Wado after an inside block, whilst in Shotokan the keage is performed after an Uraken. If both hand techniques are viewed as grabs (It is difficult to express in words) the angle and distance of attack and your position effects how best to hold your opponent... The point is not the front or side kick but the principle of moving to your opponents blind side and kicking out a leg to facilitate a finishing strike to the head (with a hand technique). Hope that helps...
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Post by fleur on Apr 17, 2012 1:20:41 GMT
hmmm.... but no hand technique follows the kick in Pinan, the kick does the damage.
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Post by th0mas on Apr 17, 2012 7:49:28 GMT
hmmm.... but no hand technique follows the kick in Pinan, the kick does the damage. Hi Fleur That is a good point, but remember the aim of the kata is to instruct in the principles of combat and that the many implications of any given situation are practically impossible to fully map in a kata sequence. I don't believe in this case the kick is a finishing techique. What the kata appears to be showing at this point is having got control of your opponents arm (through the application of pressure to the elbow and shoulder joint) a good approach would be to further control your opponent by moving further to his blind side and then with the quick application of a kick to the back of his leg or knee you are able to gain further advantage to enable you to finish him... If you want to take something from the kata, the next techique is a shuto, and depending how your opponent has fallen you finish with the elbow or the knife hand to the side of the head/neck... As you can see there are many potential options, the important thing is to recognise that understanding how to maintain control to some small degree and apply applications on the fly is very important in combat. If you look at the Heian Nedan applications Hollistically you can see that there are some themes running through the kata, in this case getting to and then controlling an opponent from their blind side .......it is as if it has been designed... This I believe is true for many kata...these are great to investigate yourself and further enhance your personal and dojo training. Cheers Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 18, 2012 17:46:41 GMT
Wise words Mr Runge
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Post by th0mas on Apr 24, 2012 8:19:05 GMT
Thanks Mr H, and good to see you last Sunday.
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Post by kensei on Apr 25, 2012 11:49:45 GMT
Decided to throw my two cents in here. My understanding after years of asking questions like this of seniors and reading my eyes blind is that the change was made because of our changes in stance and possition.
Prior to the "Deep stance revolutions" that changed the shape and "Face" of Shotokan, most of the stances done were "standing" stances and the slight pivot was needed to make the front stance.
Nakayama Sensei and his seniors started to change Karate and add deeper and deeper stances, suddently that slight pivot to throw a front kick was a huge deel. With that came the idea that you can kick sidways just as easy. This generation altered the Katas as they polished, researched and developed the fighting applications for self protection.
Over time the front snap kick from a standing positiong had to change to a Yoko geri from a front stance (with of course the required hip and foot shift ext and so forth). The movement became more complex (bigger) and thus the movements of today are a result of the evolution of the Tachidachi that changed Shotokan.
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Post by th0mas on Apr 25, 2012 22:17:14 GMT
Hi James
That is certainly an interesting theory and certainly sounds plausible, however I am not totally convinced.
The depth of stances in Wado Ryu as compared to Shotokan, I don't believe warrant changing the kick for ease of performance of the solo kata. In fact if you compare the kata for both Wado (Pinan Shodan) and Shotokan (Heian Nidan), Shotokan requires a bigger adustment to enable a side snap kick (the additional back leg shift prior to the kick ) This is also seen later on in the kata.
It seems to me that the deeper stances and the emphasis on bigger movements in shotokan may have resulted in a shift in application/function. The wider you step the further distance you may be from your opponent, a side thrust kick may give greater range. This may also stack with the change from Uchi Uke to uraken...
...or it could be totally down to accident and personal preference. Nakayama prefers Yoko Geri so in true Japanese style all the senior students conform to his preference and thus a new dogma is born. :-)
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Post by th0mas on Apr 25, 2012 22:20:14 GMT
We have a discussion group meeting this weekend and one of the topics has be stumped. I've looked all over the web and tried searching the forum but haven't come across and info. Here's the question(s): Supposedly, all the yoko geri keage in the Heian Katas were originally mae geri. Again, supposedly Funakoshi changed them from mae geri to yoko keage when he brought them from Okinawa to Japan. What was the reason for this? In fact yoko keage was not used in any shotokan kata such as Kanku and Gankaku. Why was this so? Hate to ask as it seems as if I'm cheating but I'm really stumped on this one and hope some of you guys can help. Thanks in advance. Guy Coulston So what happened at the discussion group? what did you bring to the mix and what did the others suggest?
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