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Jion
May 11, 2012 2:26:23 GMT
Post by tomobrien on May 11, 2012 2:26:23 GMT
Got a new member in our humble dojo several weeks ago. He's a Shotokan Shodan. He is teaching me Jion. In turn I have him doing ukemi waza, judo throws, ronduri, boxing, grappling, defense against bats & knives & MMA among other things. We are having great fun! Thanks, Tom
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Jion
May 11, 2012 6:02:07 GMT
Post by malk103 on May 11, 2012 6:02:07 GMT
It took me ages to learn Jion and I still haven't got near to perfecting it yet. Good on you for "expanding" his range.
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Jion
May 11, 2012 11:42:36 GMT
Post by kensei on May 11, 2012 11:42:36 GMT
Jion is one of the most basic senior level Kata their is. It reprosents the very fundamentals of Shotokan and is one of the most straight forwards Kata we have.
To make it better you must remember "power and speed, speed and power...In Jion, you have to find the middle". Thats what a wise old Sensei once told me.
J
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Jion
May 11, 2012 13:19:36 GMT
Post by th0mas on May 11, 2012 13:19:36 GMT
Just to add to this discussion, there is a good investigation/study into Jion bunkai done by Rakesh Patel for his 5th Dan grading. www.rakesh-patel.com/Jiondownload.htmI have been playing around with his interpretation of Jion and am enjoying it immensely(certainly more than my usual bunch of reluctant Uke)
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Jion
May 14, 2012 0:10:31 GMT
Post by tomobrien on May 14, 2012 0:10:31 GMT
Wow! Thanks for all the input guys! I am also studying Kanazawa of course Tom
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Jion
May 14, 2012 10:06:52 GMT
Post by malk103 on May 14, 2012 10:06:52 GMT
I have found a few more video clips on Utube where Kanazawa talks through a Kata and adds a few Bunkai applications. I've not seen them before so they may have been uploaded recently - hopefully from a legal source...
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Jion
May 14, 2012 19:36:01 GMT
Post by th0mas on May 14, 2012 19:36:01 GMT
I know it's nearly blashemous... But Sadly I find Kanazawa's Bunkai interpretations just a little unrealistic and reliant on Karate-style attacks at long range etc. Personally, unlike his seminal video on the 26 shotokan kata forms, I would not use Kanazawa's bunkai interpretations as reference material, unless I was interested in understanding how Shotokan Karate's approach to Kata lost its way in the 20th Century...
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Jion
May 14, 2012 20:44:07 GMT
Post by malk103 on May 14, 2012 20:44:07 GMT
That's a very good point, they were only a few basic applications where i've seen other people "find" loads of different applications within a Kata. Again some of those were stretching it a bit but all good to keep us thinking. I've recently read a book about Shotokan Myths by a fairly senior Japanese Karateka/Sensei and he criticised the JKA for only showing the basics in some of their videos, like Nakayama's, where they would have been very much aware of higher levels of Bunkai.
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Jion
May 15, 2012 0:28:55 GMT
Post by nathanso on May 15, 2012 0:28:55 GMT
I've recently read a book about Shotokan Myths by a fairly senior Japanese Karateka/Sensei and he criticised the JKA for only showing the basics in some of their videos, like Nakayama's, where they would have been very much aware of higher levels of Bunkai. I haven't read his book, but I've read his articles in SKM. I am skeptical of this. There was an interview by Harada in SKM a while back. In it, he said that Gichin Funakoshi used to tell them that kata was important but never told them why it is was important (as a consequence, his students had little interest in kata and mostly wanted to spar). The obvious implication is that they were never shown or practiced any serious kata applications.
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Jion
May 15, 2012 0:46:29 GMT
Post by fujicolt on May 15, 2012 0:46:29 GMT
I've recently read a book about Shotokan Myths by a fairly senior Japanese Karateka/Sensei and he criticised the JKA for only showing the basics in some of their videos, like Nakayama's, where they would have been very much aware of higher levels of Bunkai. I haven't read his book, but I've read his articles in SKM. I am skeptical of this. There was an interview by Harada in SKM a while back. In it, he said that Gichin Funakoshi used to tell them that kata was important but never told them why it is was important (as a consequence, his students had little interest in kata and mostly wanted to spar). The obvious implication is that they were never shown or practiced any serious kata applications. Hence - as i have stated for decades - there ARE NO KATA APPLICATIONS - just Kata Implications = what might it imply it can be used for? Also - why blasphemous to Question Kanazawa Sensei or ANY INstructor?
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Jion
May 18, 2012 2:06:18 GMT
Post by tomobrien on May 18, 2012 2:06:18 GMT
Grappling/wrestling & ronduri @ The Ronin Martial Arts Club tonite! Break-falls (ukemi waza), pummeling/swimming, lifting for body drops, sweeps (de ashi harai), throws (ippon seonage), scarf hold (kesa gatame), arm bar (juji gatame), rear naked choke (hadaka jime) with the hooks in & rollin! No jion but Misha, our new Shotokan Shodan is experiencing a whole new world & he's luvin it. Next week I wanna get back into jion again. Thanks, Tom
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Jion
May 23, 2012 1:54:29 GMT
Post by tomobrien on May 23, 2012 1:54:29 GMT
Hot & humid @ The Ronin Martial Arts Club tonite! Ten no kata, Jion, back-kick (ushiro geri), rear naked choke (hadaka jime), cross chokes (juji jime), defense against kicks & sparring (kumite)! Good work! Thanks, Tom PS I have gotten the rudiments of Jion
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Jion
May 23, 2012 9:33:55 GMT
Post by Allan Shepherd on May 23, 2012 9:33:55 GMT
To me Kata is important because it is Kihon put together, similar to a story using the alphabet. Kata is IMPORTANT because it simply allows us to explore Kihon more deeply in the same way that we read a dictionary to understand the words of a story.
Bunkai is application whilst Oyo is implication, oyo allows us to explore which is quite fexible whilst bunkai can be quite rigid but more importantly quite restricted.
Best Regards Allan
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Jion
May 23, 2012 21:00:28 GMT
Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 21:00:28 GMT
to create debate: Sorry Allan - But Bunkai simply does not exist as stated and explained many times and Oyo has various explanations. Kata is not essential for the development of MA skills and many very useful systems don't have or use it but produce good fighters. It could well be argued that Kata has become so embroiled in myth, legend, lack of real info etc that it is so convaluted to work out it wastes precious training time. a contraversial stance i know but would love to be convinced otherwise with genuine valid reasons rather than the 'they have told us it is valuable' response. Kata is far from a closer study of Kihon as within Kata is only about 20% worth of techniques commonly practiced within the Kihon studies of most Shotokan Dojo the rest are rarely truly practiced. Oh and to be clear i still advocate the practice of Kata but no longer for the reasons often voiced
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Jion
May 23, 2012 23:34:41 GMT
Post by ruestir on May 23, 2012 23:34:41 GMT
Interesting Steve. I shall attempt to state my own arguments. Bunkai simply does not exist as stated and explained many times and Oyo has various explanations. Bunkai, by definition, is decomposition or disassemble. So, when I practice bunkai I am disassembling a kata, or breaking it down into pieces so I may understand it better. Oyo is the application of those broken down pieces into workable self defense techniques. So, from that standpoint I'm not sure how you can say that it doesn't exist since they are a process of examining kata. I think this where we get into the realm of trying to reason between the purpose of an individual's training. I agree you don't have to learn kata in order to learn how to fight well, spar or defend yourself. However, if a person is looking for more than just the endless repetition of techniques and instead desires a richer experience within a given martial art, then the in depth study of kata can be quite rewarding. I totally agree that in some circles it has become just what you say. Especially in the schools where it is little more than performance art. Those people totally waste their time practicing kata when they should be working on their sparring skills. Kata practice from that standpoint is completely worthless in my humble opinion. If they instead practiced kata as a representation of a condensed fighting style I believe it would reveal tactics and approaches that simply sparring would not give them. However, I will be quick to admit that the benefits may vary.
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Jion
May 23, 2012 23:46:35 GMT
Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 23:46:35 GMT
please note: Oh and to be clear i still advocate the practice of Kata but no longer for the reasons often voiced Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=kata&thread=867&page=1#6973#ixzz1vjuKr1Bdwhich brings me to be able to say that although i still have somethings that you posted that i don't quite agree with (especiall re Bunkai and semantics ) I really think you would find we are NOT poles apart! It's late though and T'Wife has tomorrow's schedule planned from an early start so I respectfully bow out and will renegage tomorrow Nice debate !
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Jion
May 24, 2012 11:15:16 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on May 24, 2012 11:15:16 GMT
Here we are again! Bunkai, Oyo alphabets! lets take the alphabet analogy. The alphabet may be used to say, write a book.For arguments sake lets say a car manual. We can read about the car, we can jump from beginning to middle to end, but we do not drive the book! Kate encapsulate a set of principles but unless applied to a living, breathing opponent, its practice is pointless ! Unless of course you are happy winning shiny dust-collecting trophies for performing something you fundamentally do not understand.
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Jion
May 24, 2012 11:16:31 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on May 24, 2012 11:16:31 GMT
Sorry! No idea who Kate is ! (should have read Kata obviously)
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Jion
May 24, 2012 12:36:59 GMT
Post by th0mas on May 24, 2012 12:36:59 GMT
Here we are again! Bunkai, Oyo alphabets! lets take the alphabet analogy. The alphabet may be used to say, write a book.For arguments sake lets say a car manual. We can read about the car, we can jump from beginning to middle to end, but we do not drive the book! Kate encapsulate a set of principles but unless applied to a living, breathing opponent, its practice is pointless ! Unless of course you are happy winning shiny dust-collecting trophies for performing something you fundamentally do not understand. No arguments from me.
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Jion
May 24, 2012 23:54:23 GMT
Post by fujicolt on May 24, 2012 23:54:23 GMT
Here we are again! Bunkai, Oyo alphabets! lets take the alphabet analogy. The alphabet may be used to say, write a book.For arguments sake lets say a car manual. We can read about the car, we can jump from beginning to middle to end, but we do not drive the book! Kate encapsulate a set of principles but unless applied to a living, breathing opponent, its practice is pointless ! Unless of course you are happy winning shiny dust-collecting trophies for performing something you fundamentally do not understand. But I have a clarification question: Jim when you say 'Applied to a living breathing opponent' do you mean in the sense of 'Mentally' (meaning you are thinking of an opponent and the possible use of the movement... or do you mean 'Physically' in that any solo exercise is fruitless and only Kumite Drills will ever advance your progress? I kinda think I know your answer but just thought it required clarification cos as written it could be misunderstood and challenged mistakenly
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Jion
May 25, 2012 11:08:55 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on May 25, 2012 11:08:55 GMT
Sorry if this seems evasive Steve but my answer would be both. If not engaged mentally ( As Bruce Lee said in Enter the Dragon "Emotional Content" ) the performance is reduced to elegant aerobics. If the kata is performed without also being drilled with a partner then the point of the kata is being missed and has less validity than shadow boxing. It depends again on your focus. If you just want to collect belts and trophies then carry on with the practice of kata. If you promote yourself as teaching or practicing traditional karate and do not drill kata with a partner, you are kidding yourself. If your focus is MMA style tournaments or kick-boxing etc then kata have no place in your training. However , I totally buy the " moving zen " aspect and practice purely for the pleasure of doing so. I just think some self analysis and honesty is called for.
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Jion
May 25, 2012 18:09:01 GMT
Post by fujicolt on May 25, 2012 18:09:01 GMT
Jim, All I asked for was clarification which you have delivered with the usual clarity and aplomb but enough of throwing Sugar at you you still took me to a Local Pub full of Nutters, aliens and psychopaths which has meant me needing counselling, medication and constant supervision...... Because it was such fun and thus addictive HAHAHA!
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Jion
May 26, 2012 17:21:38 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on May 26, 2012 17:21:38 GMT
Steve! You have on several occasions taken it upon yourself to cast aspersions not only upon my local hostlery but the fine God-fearing, chapel-going folks who partake of the odd civilized libation whilst indulging in good-natured badinage and witty repartee. Granted, you did chance upon the annual hosting of the regional finals of the village idiot competition, coupled with the play-offs for the female Gurning championships however , I think it presumptuous of you assume this is the usual standard of clientelle and feel you owe a heartfelt apology to that fine establishment and its patrons. You should also count yourself lucky to have been spared the full horror that is the LADIES DARTS TEAM !!!!
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Jion
May 31, 2012 2:12:17 GMT
Post by tomobrien on May 31, 2012 2:12:17 GMT
Hot & humid here @ The Ronin Martial Arts Club We have no AC so we go out on the lawn & do kata & kumite. We don't roll/grapple or do ronduri on the grass for obvious reasons Did some taikgyaku, heian shodan/nidan & jion bunkai. It's great fun trying different bunkai It's good to be training outside on different terrain. The pine cones make it interesting Thanks, Tom
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Jion
Jun 3, 2012 3:06:52 GMT
Post by tomobrien on Jun 3, 2012 3:06:52 GMT
Continue to love jion. Got a goju black belt started with us last week. He don't know from ukemi waza either We are havin a great time tho! Thanks, Tom
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