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Post by andyupton on May 15, 2012 20:05:34 GMT
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Post by fleur on May 15, 2012 23:39:47 GMT
hmm... bunkai can be what ever you want to make it, so each to their own. Interesting to see when he did the kata, he moved to his left. Is this normal for Tekki Nidan? I do Naihanchi Nidan and we always go to the right first. While we practise different systems from memory the Tekki series is very similar to Niahanchi so just thought I'd ask about that directional difference at the beginning. I dont recall watching any other Tekki kata doing this.
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Post by nathanso on May 16, 2012 5:56:10 GMT
The bunkai was pretty vanilla- defenses against long distance kicks and punches.
You're right Fleur- T2 starts to the right, not left. But, it likes like he blended T2 and T3.
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Post by Rob S on May 16, 2012 8:06:54 GMT
Carlo Fugazza (One of Shirai's senior students) was probably the best kata performer, outside of the Japanese big names, in the 70's.
He is not performing Tekki Nidan, but a Tekki Oyo.
He is sought after as a teacher and kata coach within Europe.
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 16, 2012 9:09:45 GMT
I have no doubt he is a fine karate-ka and dont doubt his credentials . If you feel this is a workable representation of Tekki bunkai you are of course entitled to your view and I hope equally you will allow me my opinion, and I stress just my opinion. I have taken particular interest in Tekki over the course of 32 years due initially to being intrigued by the linear side to side embusen and the fact that the second half of the kata is a mirror image of the first. I and others have come to the conclusion that one of the more plausible explanations is that this is primarily a grappling system and the distance starts close and gets closer still. The reason for the repetition is merely to emphasis the importance of drilling techniques on both left and right . There is a reason for the side to side linear movement so to change that to 45 degree angles is to misunderstand the embusen, in my opinion. The distance in the above is incorrect for any practice and if you need to radically adjust the ma-ai for bunkai to work then it makes the rendition suspect. Not a personal attack on anyone just the most plausible explanation. Lets all keep an open mind but not so open that our brains fall out!
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Post by fujicolt on May 16, 2012 13:11:29 GMT
Knowing the depth of Jim's study I would advise heeding his words - especially on the 'distancing' points.
I personally have found that the Tekki Series produce far more viable Bunkai implications if you abandon the falsely low and wide use of Kiba Dachi and return to the much higher and more realistic original versions that can be seen in some of the auld Okinawan photos. A very interesting Kata series that I believe were never intended to be used against post war classical Karate attacks but where intended for use against 'street' type punches, swings, grabs etc - but agree with Jim - Go explore but remain at least plausible!
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Post by ruestir on May 16, 2012 13:26:41 GMT
What makes this bunkai interpretation "wrong" IMO is that it relies too heavily on the attacker using specific combinations that the defender is working against. For instance, consider the first five movements of Tekki Nidan against someone who attacks with either a single or two handed push. 1. Cross step double elbow 2. Raise right leg to prepare for step and execute double upper cut 3. Right step out and wedge block 4. Left cross step right hammer fist into left hand 5. Right step, right augmented lower block. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect, but at least it doesn't rely on my opponent stepping punch that I block and him stepping back to execute another stepping punch that I block again. Also, I have to admit that this application is not all my own, but a variation of one that Elmar taught me some time ago.
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Post by fujicolt on May 16, 2012 23:06:47 GMT
Alex - the way to approach it is that all bunkai could be possible but then filter them into what would be most likely (in terms of attack upon you) and most workable (in terms of using them to defend oneself). Note - I stated 'oneself' here because a use by a 6'4'' heavily built person may be very different than one more suitable for a 5'6'' slightly built person etc! I hope that makes sense
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 17, 2012 11:13:16 GMT
We are missing a very important implication from the start. Most of you are beginning the kata from the first step to the side. Nothing , and I mean nothing , has no use. That includes the yoi position. Some versions of the opening move for Tekki shodan begin almost like Kanku-dai and sets the distance as close quarters from the word go. Difficult to describe here but for too long we have accepted certain moves as being an "on gaurd" position or calming the mind prior to combat. If he you have time to calm your mind prior to combat then surely you have the opportunity to run away?! Like I previously stated, do not blindly accept anything, especially if it makes no sense to you.
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Post by ruestir on May 17, 2012 11:21:27 GMT
Alex - the way to approach it is that all bunkai could be possible but then filter them into what would be most likely (in terms of attack upon you) and most workable (in terms of using them to defend oneself). Note - I stated 'oneself' here because a use by a 6'4'' heavily built person may be very different than one more suitable for a 5'6'' slightly built person etc! I hope that makes sense I don't see how we disagree at all Steve, and please no one take my example as the "only" possibility. It is one, as Steve says, that I found the most workable given a specific situation for me.
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Post by malk103 on May 17, 2012 22:19:55 GMT
That statement about size/height makes perfect sense, i've always been taught that as my Sensei is er, vertically challenged.... I didn't comment earlier as I have only just learnt the basics of this Kata but i did think that the Bunkai was almost adjusting the Kata to fit the attack in some places. Especially when he did a Hook punch when the attacker was a good distance away, I always assumed this would only be used at close quarters when other strikes weren't available. From what i've learnt I always thought that Tekki Shodan was demonstrating very close techniques and started with you being grabbed, I assumed Tekki Nidan would continue this close theme, it would be great to know more Bunkai ideas on this series.
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Post by fujicolt on May 17, 2012 22:46:45 GMT
Alex - the way to approach it is that all bunkai could be possible but then filter them into what would be most likely (in terms of attack upon you) and most workable (in terms of using them to defend oneself). Note - I stated 'oneself' here because a use by a 6'4'' heavily built person may be very different than one more suitable for a 5'6'' slightly built person etc! I hope that makes sense I don't see how we disagree at all Steve, and please no one take my example as the "only" possibility. It is one, as Steve says, that I found the most workable given a specific situation for me. Sorry Alex - you've misunderstood me - I wasn't suggesting you and I disagreed - was just suggesting a mindset to approach possible Kata move/s usage thats all!
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Post by ruestir on May 18, 2012 12:11:53 GMT
From what i've learnt I always thought that Tekki Shodan was demonstrating very close techniques and started with you being grabbed, I assumed Tekki Nidan would continue this close theme, it would be great to know more Bunkai ideas on this series. I would highly recommend Elmar Schmeisser's book "Bunkai: Secrets of Karate Kata Volume 1: The Tekki Series". The book has applications for all three Tekki kata utilizing every move. Aside from training with him, his book really opened my eyes to the possibilities of applications within kata.
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Post by th0mas on May 18, 2012 17:46:38 GMT
My personal take on Tekki Nedan is that the kata starts (..and I take Jim's point about the yoi position) with a bear hug from behind. The raising of the arms and the drop in wieght is part of the attempt to break the hold (along with the usual wriggling, shouting, head-butting and foot stomping) and the cross leg step is actually a turn which leads onto an arm bar and then a leg take down (with two options). ... then you repeat it in the other direction
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Post by fleur on May 19, 2012 9:01:56 GMT
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 20, 2012 14:57:00 GMT
The problem I have with all of these examples of bunkai is that they all show responses to specific attacks, your opponent attacks with oi-tsuki you do X he attacks with Y you do etc... My opinion is that kata teach you combative principles which you are then able to apply in a fluid situation. So instead of showing uke patiently waiting for tori to attack from 6 feet away, uke would be already embroiled in a "scrap" or making a pre-emptive attack. This also means you do not have a situation where you are trying to memorise many different responses to many different attacks, which in a moment of stress you would forget. The kata recognises that it is much easier to have a small arsenal of gross motor skills and every now and again it drops in a fine motor skill as an alternative. ( Usually indicated where a move is performed slowly) If we take the Heians as an example, we are all aware that they begin simply and build up to increasing complexity, culminating in Heian Godan . The same can be said of the Tekki series. It is all well and good having fun with the implications but we have to start from a position of realism. Karate was always intended as a civilian defence system. Habitual acts of violence have changed little over the centuries so when drilling kata we should start from that viewpoint and not drill kata as we would ippon kumite. I am sure in all our kumite, as varied as that may be, we all have techniques we favour? These will of course be techniques we find easy to apply and techniques which we find work for us. It makes sense to drill those repeatedly and we will all fall back on those techniques when put under pressure. It is natural and in fact should figure as part of your training. Kata are an encapsulation of techniques that the originator of the kata also found effective and they could apply under combat conditions, a combative principle which they found effective enough that they thought it would be useful to pass on. We can therefore postulate that they are unlikely to contain unrealistic or flowery techniques which are difficult to remember or apply.
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Post by th0mas on May 22, 2012 14:33:47 GMT
This is one of Lupo's better bunkai videos, although it is, as usual, rather reliant on long range karate-style attacks with a compliant partner. The areas I like are where he clearly takes advantage of the weight drop and body shifting dynamic that is implied throughout tekki shodan. The principle of using your body to gain mechanical advantage to enable macro-style locks and arm bars seems to me a more practical attempt than some of the tekki bunkai stuff you can find on the web.. including some very senior Shotokan karate sensei who should really know better.. I think the video's are quite old and I would like to see him re-apply his thinking to more relalistic situational senarios. From clinch range or defence against a flurry of punches not just single-attack-and-pause. ( I know he does some "realistic" stuff but essentially that is the same as his other stuff, but just wearing jeans!)
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 10:32:21 GMT
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Post by th0mas on May 24, 2012 12:53:59 GMT
Well I am looking forward to our next training session Steve...
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Post by fujicolt on May 24, 2012 13:23:07 GMT
are you gonna behave this time? Sorry Tom I couldn't resist You may recall the impact Padwork session I did that utilised small hip and body rotations to enhance impact force for short openhanded techniques Slaps, forearm and elbow strikes - You all where eventually hitting so hard that the Pads split! - this principle is drawn directly from the body mechanics seen within the Tekki Series Often Kata have certain technical and tactical principles within them that can be taken from the Kata into a contextual training process - in this case creating impact enhancement over short (very short!) distances without the assistance of a long trajectory and the aswsistance of projected force. I distinctly remember you commenting that it is very similar to Peter Consterdine's double hip Padwork - which is very true but it is definitely from within the FULL Shotokan CQ use of different biomechanical processes. Remind me next time we meet to include somemore of this stuff in the class especially for you
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Post by th0mas on May 24, 2012 14:18:59 GMT
Woo Hoo... This is just the type of stuff I love. Along with neck cranks, close range grabbing, controlling and dominance... much to Mr Tedlow's horror
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Post by fujicolt on May 24, 2012 22:58:14 GMT
Tom - as you know I will do all possible to enhance your Karate experience but yer Sex life is your own business and does Mr Tetlow know you think of him in this way? LMAO!
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Post by th0mas on May 28, 2012 12:33:01 GMT
.. hahaha..
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