|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 4, 2012 11:53:02 GMT
Heard this mentioned the other day and have been told this over the years by other instructors. " The heian kata were devised by Itosu , from Kanku dai/Kushanku to be a simpler version of kata to be taught to children". Do you believe this is true? If you do, are they fit for purpose? what are they teaching children? are they an efficient form of lets say callishtenics?
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jun 4, 2012 15:19:12 GMT
On a similar theme I have also heard/read that they were created as smaller versions/parts of longer Kata. Again to get them into schools, maybe to increase the number of Kata as exercises. They could also be learnt easier as they were shorter.
Looking at them now then plenty of people have analysed them and come up with some great applications - not all of them ideal for kids - but all of them good to expand the imagination and knowledge. It is sad to see some of today's modern day students wonder why on earth they have to perform these dance routines and get bored quickly, partly because they are not explained properly or they just don't "get" them.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 4, 2012 17:13:03 GMT
I personally dont buy the kata for children theory. Just wondered if anyone had heard this and if you lend it any credence.
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 4, 2012 18:03:02 GMT
Many say these were invented for teaching High School students. Some say that only H5/P5 was created by Itsou, others lay claim to his creating all five. We will probably never know, unless some very old texts get translated accurately.
Some say the Heian/Pinan Series are from the higher level kata, others say that they are from or reworked versions of 'Channan' which were possibly kata from Masumura. (Elmar has writen on the subject so I am sure he will comment).
Since many of the old greats (Mabuni as one, Sakagami another) speak of 'Channan' or 'Yoshimura no Channan' it gives credence to a theory that the Heian/Pinan series could well be the original kata.
What I find interesting is that Funakoshi shows the left foot as moving forward (Karate-Do Kyohan 1935 edition - not the translated text by Oshima) to make the block in H2/P1. Yet some Shorinryu exponents seem to move the right foot backwards. This changes the inflection/application/implication of the breakdown of the kata. Moving backwards creates a block in the evasion sense; moving forwards as per Funakoshi's pic and Shotokan current practice becomes interception etc.
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jun 5, 2012 0:22:42 GMT
... the Heian/Pinan Series are ... reworked versions of 'Channan' which were possibly kata from Masumura. (Elmar has writen on the subject so I am sure he will comment). Well, read my book? I think Itosu did Channan dai/sho (herein after CD and CS) a favor by breaking the 2 kata into the 5 heians/pinans. And if you look at the openings of H3 and H5, they are very similar to each other, likewise the openings of H2 and H4. CD is (essentially) H2 followed by H3 with the H3 opening excised; CS likewise is essentially H4 plus H5 with its opening excised. H1 (P2) in my mind was Itosu's exasperated reaction when his High School students couldn't get P1 (H2) right - so he took a couple of linking movements out of CD and put them into the floor pattern of the beginning of CD to create P2/H1 just to get them oriented to the very concept of a kata embusen. But that's just my suspicion. YMMV.
|
|
|
Post by fleur on Jun 5, 2012 2:18:06 GMT
What I find interesting is that Funakoshi shows the left foot as moving forward (Karate-Do Kyohan 1935 edition - not the translated text by Oshima) to make the block in H2/P1. Yet some Shorinryu exponents seem to move the right foot backwards. This changes the inflection/application/implication of the breakdown of the kata. Moving backwards creates a block in the evasion sense; moving forwards as per Funakoshi's pic and Shotokan current practice becomes interception etc. Correct - the pinan series first stance in all 5 is in neko ashi dachi. The right foot doesn't actually move backwards it moves out in front of the person so they can swivel into neko ashi dachi to execute a defensive block. All comes back to the 'there is no first attack'. All pinan begin by defending. (however in saying that, once you have an understanding of Okinawan karate, most blocks are also a strike). The reason why Funakoshi's Heian series has the left foot moving forward, my understanding is two fold. 1. He removed neko ashi dachi(defensvise stance) and replaced it with either zenkutsu dachi(attacking stance) or kokutsu dachi depending on which kata is being preformed. 2. He choose to execute these stances moving forward because it fitted into the Japanese culture he was trying to assimulate his karate into. The Japanese being a very strong, proud culture did not step backwards for anyone, so a forward, attacking momentum fitted with the culture he was adapting his karate too. Anyhow that's my understanding of how this change came about. Read it somewhere - doesn't mean it's true
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jun 6, 2012 22:19:50 GMT
Whilst simply avoiding all the 'historical claims' simply because there are several variants on them all - some with quite genuine attempts at emprical research behind them, others not so - but in reality know one has yet produced undeniable basis for claims made..... I think it is better to look forward, realise they are a fundamental aspect of the Shotokan system and thus use them productively but honestly. that is to say we really do not know the exact reasoning behind there inclusion or any finite intended applications BUT, as with all Kata, they can assist students in developing very exact personal control of movement, timing directional changes, use of speed and use of slower movement when applicable, differences in the use of breathing, Kime, body contraction and expansion, balance, healthy and productive visualisation processes, use of Kiai and lack of it, technique mechanics including an understanding of the five stages of any technique and the complexity of combining these procedures in technique combinations etc etc etc.... and all of this in a gradually more complex format as the Kyu Grade student begins there journey into the Shotokan System. As very eloquently stated above - if all these factors are not included in the teaching process they the Heains are simply physical exercise with little MA value (IMHO)
|
|