|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 21, 2012 13:24:26 GMT
I am asking this question, with the most genuine intentions. One that MAY cause the karate-ka to INTROSPECTIVELY consider their levels.
I am asking about two levels:
1) Your perception of your technical skills based on the Japanese standard created by say the JKA. (I will explain my reason for this question later in the post).
2) Your perception of your knowledge of karate, and your ability to understand and apply the techniques in both the standard/contemporary way (i.e. JKA level of Bunkai for testing), and the more modern 'reality based self defence' methodology (a la McCarthy and Abernathy etc.)
SO:
1)
From my perspective, I often sit and wonder how I could have become better at the physical performance of karate.
The answer is clearly the time spent in the dojo, perfecting good kihon waza. The reality is that I did not spend sufficient time, whilst physically fit.
Once the age and injuries hit, the level of course dropped - so
therefore the better I had been at good Kihon-waza the better I would remain post 'karate-changing life issues'.
I trained, on average 4-5 times weekly at 2-3 hours a session. I was just beginning to get kihon-waza I could feel happy with. Then I did something stupid. I started teaching - far too soon. My kihon dod not improve any more, and the more I taught the more it slipped. That is a fact of life, the more I 'talked' the less I 'walked'.
So even though fit, I put a cap on my own karate jar.
Where does the issue come in? Well - simple. In Japan the level of most 'gaijin' karate causes quite a stir. And not a positive one. Most of the foreigners do not perform their kihon to a level where the sensei or students look and think 'wow'! Most of the foreigners are seen as 'pretenders'.
I speak from personal experience, and those who know me will be able to recognise the sources. I have deep conversations about this matter (over the past 15 years or more) with various 'high ranking' Japanese sensei who are 'legendary'. I asked them to tell me their honest opinion of 'foreigners' and our ability to perform decent or good karate.
The answer: Very few have ever managed to impress. Very few understood the 'kihon' fundamentals. Very few really understood 'Japanese Karate'. My retort is why they say that, when they then promote almost all the foreigners on gradings etc. The counter being, membership is necessary. BUT EVERYONE KNOWS THE TRUTH AS SOON AS THEY SEE A KARATE-KA MOVE. WIthin a few techniques they know the true level of that person to perform 'Japanese Karate'.
Even some foreigners who are well known and are champions - failed to impress in the 'big picture' i.e the sensei stated that they are good at tournaments but do not understand the true way of karate.
The standard answer is always insufficient for us westerners. "Train until your body understands karate. Do not train so that your head understands it." i.e. our ability s judged simply on our level of kihon (and the kata that is essentially still Kihon).
Wether we can win in a tournament, or beat them senseless in kumite is irrelevant. It is the ability to perform good kihon and kata.
The ability to perform kumite with great timing, distance, and technical proficiency. Not size, courage and brawn.
Since Shotokan is 'Japanese Karate' this forum is an ideal place to ask these 'soul searching questions' - our truthful reply only needs to be answered to one person OURSELF.
How good are we?
Would we be happy to walk into a dojo in Japan (or Okinawa), any dojo, anywhere. Any level class?
Would we be happy to demonstrate ALONE our kihon and our kata - to the sensei and the students? And invite them to give us brutally honest feedback?
2)
Of course the modern trend in Western Karate (probably not so much in Japan) is to look at how to apply our karate techniques in reality based self defence situations.
We tend to break the kata or kihon down, and as long as it works then we seem happy enough. We continue to study our abilty to understand and apply the techniques. Based on our understanding, and our perception of what the techniques are about.
Sometimes the applications are so far removed from the technique in a kata, it is actually not that recognisable. It is modified or perhaps enhanced to make it work.
That is obviously good for study purposes.
So:
Question 3. Does good ability in question 2 show that we are able to do GOOD karate as per question 1?
If we say that we have moved on in the past decade or so, away from the traditional 'Japanese training' then are we still really doing Japanese Karate - and is still really Shotokan?
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Jun 21, 2012 14:50:57 GMT
I know that this may sound like a cop-out, but to compare myself to someone else is something that I stopped doing a long time ago. I have nothing left to prove. What is most important to me is the fact that I am steadily progressing in one way or another. I don`t believe for a minute that comparing ourselves to others is a healthy outlook, this creates peer pressure that can be extremely stressful ( yet we all do this). What is important to me is the fact that I do my best & at this time I am the best that I have ever been. I`m at the cross-road where my age & body deteriation will make it so that comparing to others will be very impractical. Also teaching may have taken away from my ability to train hard enough to be a champion, but we don`t all want or need to be champions!! Teaching has forced me to learn so much in ways that I wouldn`t trade that for any number of trophys or medals...
Osu
Paul B
|
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jun 21, 2012 15:18:38 GMT
1) I have to be honest and say that I think my Kihon is fairly good, although I would never say it was great or boast about it, I have seen a better Brown belt (as well as worse Shodans) than me. I strive to get good accurate form but only have so many hours in the day to dedicate to Karate around work/life/family.
In my opinion the average Karateka in the West treats Karate as a hobby for an hour a week and will accept learning a combination as done when it looks right whereas the Japanese mindset will be to practice the combination until near perfect and then practice it more.
2) On the run up to my Shodan my knowledge was mostly based on the standard syllabus but I have always been seeking more knowledge in Kata Bunkai. Since passing Shodan I have opened up to learn more about Karate in general but often realise that I have only just begun. I will never learn it all but will always keep learning.
My practical application and Kumite are not that great as I don’t spend enough time training in this area, I would be happy to do Kata for 2 hours….
Saying that it is a thousand times better than when I first started Karate.
How good am I? No idea, but I train as often as I can and put 100% into it, Karate has long since moved on from something I do on a Thursday evening. I understand that I will get out what I put in, especially if I train with the correct mindset and spirit.
I have also started teaching early but am determined to keep up my training.
I would be scared to train in any other Dojo but would do, I can live with maybe not being up to some standards but would hope that my spirit and being eager to learn and to be corrected would make me accepted – if it didn’t then I doubt if I would want to train with them. I have been to 3 other Dojo in the UK and never felt judged.
I also now see Karate as not just Japanese so don’t accept that we need to be exactly like them or to a supremely high standard of Kihon to be doing true Karate. Does Karate have to be done exactly like JKA Karate to be good?
Also, if they have such a poor view of western Karate then wasn’t most of it learnt from JKA Sensei? Can it be watered down that much from the people that learnt it directly from JKA Sensei in the 60/70’s?
I think the Shotokan style is just that – a style. If it looks similar then it is still Shotokan, whether performed well or not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 21, 2012 16:07:00 GMT
I also now see Karate as not just Japanese so don’t accept that we need to be exactly like them or to a supremely high standard of Kihon to be doing true Karate. Does Karate have to be done exactly like JKA Karate to be good? Also, if they have such a poor view of western Karate then wasn’t most of it learnt from JKA Sensei? Can it be watered down that much from the people that learnt it directly from JKA Sensei in the 60/70’s? I think the Shotokan style is just that – a style. If it looks similar then it is still Shotokan, whether performed well or not. The point I am asking is really would we be happy to walk into a dojo anywhere, but more so in Japan? I disagree that the kihon does not need to be high level - I think it does. It does not have to be JKA to be good, it doesn't have to be SKI, JSKA, KWF, JKS, etc. But it has to be so similar it is recognisable as Shotokan, and it has to have correct fundamentals. If the hips do not work, the torso alignment is incorrect, the balance is off, the snap is missing, the kime is too exaggerated etc. etc. then it is not the karate they taught. "Also, if they have such a poor view of western Karate then wasn’t most of it learnt from JKA Sensei? Can it be watered down that much from the people that learnt it directly from JKA Sensei in the 60/70’s?" The answer is probably yes! Financially needs have probably created a situation where the association had to grow. They had to become international to fit in with what the 'master plan' may have been. So the karate may well have watered down. Let us be brutally honest. And I mean this sincerely. The instructors that so many saw in the west actually left Japan with only a few years of training. yes at high level possibly, but nevertheless only a few years. Most of them were probably really about 3 dan level - and were then thrown into the international arena to 'get on with it'. Others stayed in Japan and continued to develop along the lines that the JKA envisaged, and taught 'the standard of the JKA Karate'. The ones who left, did not possibly follow the same doctrine of standardisation. Very few are of the standard we came to see from those graduates of a certain famous course. But those same graduates are the ones who seem to feel that western or international grades are not of the same value. I do not advocate direct comparisons. Very few people could compare to Kawasoe or Kagawa or Osaka's technical standards. We are not them, we do not have their bodies, and we can't compare. Otherwise nobody would ever reach a grade above perhaps 3rd or 4th dan. But I do advocate achieving a level of karate that is 'standardised' internationally. So my questions reflect this - how do we feel about ourselves? Would we go to a dojo in Japan, blind so to speak, and expect to fit in technically. Perhaps I could re-phrase it. Are we confident in our Kihon and Kata ability? Would we go to a dojo led by a senior Japanese sensei, and fit straight into the line-up at the grade that is worn? |
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jun 21, 2012 20:54:03 GMT
Although my karate is different in ways from JKA karate. The JKA shares some similar views on true Japanese karate as I. I have no problems in going into any dojo and training. I would have no problems in going toe to toe in explaining how to do a good reverse punch or front kick. No matter what dan ranking they were are not, here in Japan. However, my confindence is not as high going into a western dojo. Yes, here in Japan, I might lose first round in kumite or kata(mainly because what I do is a bit different) but it would not be because the other guy understood the inner workings of karate any better than me. It would be he out prettied me in kata, and he out tagged me in kumite. I am not impressed with the general level of karate here in Japan/Chiba prefecture. Knowledge is very low, and you can see it in their karate. Add to that, most here do not understand proper kata bunkai and I feel like a karate master undiscovered. Do not mean to brag, I am just being honest. I know I am no master, and I am not the greatest karate person in the world. I also know there are many others who move much better than me. But on a general level, I am at the top of my class.
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jun 21, 2012 22:35:55 GMT
Rob S
I felt that your post was a kinda of you venting frustrations rather than any kind of analysis basis for someone to evaluate thier Karate journey - which will, of course, be different than yours.
the first thing that stood out for me was the seeming implication that when you started teaching your karate deteriorated - for me it was the point I knew I had to get better as I was asking people to actually Pay me to teach them (I was doing it full time for my living!). so for me it made me persoanlly train harder and definitely go find the best instruction i could - but heyho - we all walk different paths!
|
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jun 21, 2012 22:41:28 GMT
Would we be happy to walk into a dojo in Japan (or Okinawa), any dojo, anywhere. Any level class? Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=900&page=1#ixzz1yTCvg7UUTo be honest - Yes! I know I may physically struggle but that is ill health not lack of anything else! I have been fortunate to have had fine Instruction and more than a little real life experiences - so YES - I definitely wouldnt be ashamed of my heritage to use a term! ANd I know many Japanese and Okinawan students may find some of our Dojo a bind both physically and knowlegewise - we need to realise Karate went worldwide DECADES AGO! |
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 21, 2012 22:53:29 GMT
Steve,
I am not venting any frustration. I am merely stating that once I started teaching I was not training 4 or 5 times weekly, just twice weekly on average.
I have had a certain amount of success in my karate life. I am still involved. But that is neither here nor there.
My questions are whether or not we, as foreigners, are really comfortable to walk into dojos.
Are we arrogant, and over exaggerating our abilities or are we honest.
I see what Makoto says. As I eluded few in Japan are now what those certain instructors once were.
But equally I think that few outside of Japan dedicate their time to constant training. The other issue of course is the style of training. All of the dojo I have been to concentrate very heavily on one or two points for the whole class. It is drilled until it is done to a higher level. Not Kihon, then Kata then a dabbling in Kumite. More like Kihon, and then either one or two kata or a little kumite.
I am not frustrated. I am being honest.
|
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jun 22, 2012 6:19:17 GMT
I have never considered myself to be exceptionally adept technically (although I think I am a better teacher than I am a practitioner). But I started in the 1960s, and had as my models Okazaki, Enoeda, Kiska, Mori, Ueki, etc., who were all in their 30s back then. There have been periods when I was training really intensively (4-5 times a week) where I would have had no hesitation to put myself on the line like you asked about, but far more periods where life allowed me to get to the dojo only twice a week, and my technique was far below what I would have considered to be minimally acceptable for even an incompetent like myself.
On the other hand, while I still consider the JKA technical ideal to be the model to strive for, I am not impressed with its devotion to form to the exclusion of practical applications. So while those senior instructors you mention may not be impressed with the technical abilities of the vast majority of westerners, I think that many westerners are not impressed with the breadth of knowledge commonly shown by Japanese instructors.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 22, 2012 7:49:52 GMT
.... So while those senior instructors you mention may not be impressed with the technical abilities of the vast majority of westerners, I think that many westerners are not impressed with the breadth of knowledge commonly shown by Japanese instructors. If we are comparing the breadth of knowledge of todays big names, to those of the 60's we may be speaking of a different game all together. Those guys Neil mentions, were legendary to us back then, but may not have been technically better than todays people, just the brave pilgrims that took karate to the world. They took on the all comers, they impressed, and they gave us what we have. The new generation are perhaps not as impressive, but actually their knowledge may be higher. I will maintain that karate as practiced by Shotokan is and must be good kihon. To be able to take a kata or a technique and 'talk' it through; 'manipulate' it for kata practicality is a good thing and shows people are thinking. We are however graded on our 3 K's in the system, in my JKA and offspring up until 4 dan by Kihon. If you fail the kihon you fail the grading - end of. Fail the kata or kumite you get a re-take! What does that say. KIHON is the Shotokan benchmark. Not the knowledge of applications, experience of real life, medals on the neck etc. Looking at our own kihon, especially when training rigorously and lengthily, does it stand the test of time? Does it stand in every sense. Or do we just hope we are good enough? Let me re-phrase and bring in a well known karate-ka from my past. I had the man, a westerner, and reputed (rightly so) sensei attend my dojo. He asked the dojo to go up and down the line with a technique of kizami zuki, tsuri ashi or okuri ashi, then gyaku zuki. The combination was to be done smoothly, and from beginning to end of the dojo without stopping on kime. He demonstrated it, perhaps 5 time in total, and perhaps therefore at least 50 combinations. Everyone else did it too, including me. Nobody could emulate the sensei. NOBODY! Nobody could do it properly. He was flawless and effortless it seemed, although he was sweating. He was doing it correctly and hard and fast and well. Because his KIHON was well tuned and excellently trained and consistent. Of course he lived and taught in Japan. That made me think. I have the film of it and I watched it the other day. People carrying all sorts of UK dan ranks from 1 through perhaps 5 dan were on that floor. They all, to a person, were unable to perform the kihon, and sustain the level like that model of a sensei. A decade or more later, I see one other foreigner (who was also at the same course) teaching a class. He speaks of kihon, and unleashes a kick from a relaxed position that is so reminiscent of Kagawa sensei. He has no shifting to let his leg get to a position to kick, he just fires from the hip and the leg shoots up. Purely Kagawa'esque to watch. Now that man also trained/trains in Japan and is not out there trying to prove anything. He just trains karate. Both these men, have shown their ability to execute virtually flawless technique. Their Kihon is trained, and well trained. My question remains, being honest how good are we really? Is our Kihon really up to scratch? Do we really understand our own style with our bodies? Before you decide that I am whining about myself, or frustrated, etc. I am not. I made my karate bed and sleep in it. I read on this forum and others about the ability to do karate etc. But the real truth is how do we measure up, truly, in the performance of our karate, sustained. Not just an occasional demonstration. I am asking a question that is asking for introspection of ourselves. I ask it simply because in my other art, on every course, and at every taikai, all the persons of 7th dan and higher demonstrate their embu to the attendees. They still 'go on the line. Their embu lasts about 6 minutes, where every grade gets to watch, scrutnise, privately criticise or whatever. But those sensei are 'on the line'. |
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 22, 2012 10:05:18 GMT
Hi Rob
I agree with you 100%, KIHON is the Shotokan benchmark. I think a lot of the problem is that prospective karateka do not research (I have spoke of this before on here or TSW?) where to find this benchmark. We all like a bargain when it comes to buying a car, a house, or obtaining a loan etc. All of the materialistic things in life are cheap, they last the duration of the product or the funding to buy same.
Training in karate can be quite similar IF viewed as a materialistic aquisition for all to see and idolise, we invest a considerable amount of time and money but fail when it comes to attaining a bargain simply because we have not researched.
During September 2009 I interviewed Sensei Vilaca Pinto 7th Dan JSKA Portugal in readiness for the 2010 JSKA World Championships in Portugal for Shaun and Emma at TSW. The interview was quite detailed covering many aspects of our Art but one particular part sums up the need for 100% Kihon, these are his words.
"I believe that Karate can improve with some new and appropriate changes if the goal is the human being - self confidence, healthfulness and better social behaviour. Let me transcribe the words of Sensei Nakayama about competition in an article for Fighting Arts International magazine when they asked him to give advice for all karateka. I would tell them to meditate on the words of Anton Geesink, the Dutchman who defeated the Japanese and won the World Judo Championships. Geesink faced and defeated every major Japanese Judo competitor and he shook the very foundations of martial arts in Japan. It was just unthinkable that a joung European could so skillfully and cleanly destroy the Japanese masters at their own art, but that is exactly what he did. I remember that the leaders of Judo and other martial arts in Japan were in a tremendous uproar and they made elaborate and detailed plans to study Geesinks secrets of competition. Ultimately they arranged for a Japanese journalist to interview him in depth to try to disciver the training methods this man had used to defeat the Japanese. Geesink's answer was perhaps the most important statement that I have heard in all my years in Karate-Do and I will never forget it. He said the Japanese have devoted themselves to the study of the Judo for competition. They have gone to extraordinary lenghts to develop winning contestants and fine champions. I on the other hand have never trained for competition in my life. All I have ever done is trained in Judo as a way of life exactly as Dr Kano taught. While the Japanese were devising competative strategies I was in the dojo practising basics and kata. I defeated the Japanese because I know Judo better than the Japanese. The secret is to train every day in the basics. This will make you unbeatable"
Very wise words indeed from Sensei Nakayama.
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jun 22, 2012 13:21:01 GMT
When I was younger I trained like a young bull.....thousands of Reps over and over to try to sharpen my Kihon. I did not think mucha and it took two hour long classes a day, an hour after class every class doing Oi zuk, Mae Geri, Yoko geri and Mawashi geri up and down the floor to forge a solid 155 pound muscle of a body that could snap techniques out like no buisiness.
I grew up and started working and cut my classes down to one a day with about a half hour of training after to work on flow and smooth transitions, kumite reactions and working the door at a bar helped me to hone my understanding of what Karate strikes and judo throws really did to a body. I found when I went to the dojo I was Dangerous, I had no control and lots of power and speed. I hurt alot of people and I got hurt alot as well...training was fun...for me, but I am sure those that trained with me were not so happy.
I got even older and opened a club, I had to teach more now and my training was now five days a week of classes, teaching twice a week and Sundays were four hours of Kata practice in the club by myself. I began to gain more and more control and my sparring was much smoother, I no longer hurt people and teaching had me thinking more about how things were done and less about "JUST DO IT" kind of training that young silly men do. My commitment was not lacking and while I was not in as good a shape as I was in my early 20's, I was a healthy 30 year old that had a nicer Kumite game and could take young jacks out on the floor and really work them over.
I got even older and closed my club and started teaching with my instructor. My training time is now four times a week at home working on drills and Kihon and two classes a week with my instructor at the club teaching and training. I find my technique is not as crisp, my speed is down and my body is not as physically imposing as it was 25 years ago. But my kumite is generally very good, my Kata is smooth and feels like a old jacket that just fits perfectly and while some guys leave me gassed, I can use way better timing and distance understanding to supprise those that are faster than I am and I am still not scared to get hit so Dojo sparring with guys that want to get rough is still fun.
Your Karate evolves, your understanding of what you are doing grows and your ability to Know what you are doing deepens when you train longer and teaching helps that even more. Your body will change each year. First it will get a lot stronger, faster and more explosive...but over time the youth leaves you as it does all things, but you are left with ability that makes those youthful advantages seem simple and one dimentional.
yes, your basics will weaken, I used to be able to side kick straight up at the roof, now I can still manage the head on good days, the ribs and leg area at any time. I was fast and dynamic, now my speed is not as good, but add the timing factor and I pretty much have an equal amount of success in class kumite...just looks like I am not working as hard.
Training to be a physical machine only lasts for a while then age takes over and you have to use your brains more.....
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 22, 2012 13:29:58 GMT
Allan,
Spot on! I too have previously used that quote. It is very appropriate. Kihon is the benchmark. Kihon is what we need to elevate ourselves in. Kihon is what is needed to be able to perform a good kata.
Let's look at it another way. What is kata?
It is all Kihon technique, performed differently, with different lengths, unsoku, rhythms etc. BUt it is Kihon. If the KIHON is weak the KATA is weak!
Let's not try and rationalise our way out of it by stating that in real situations the distances change, the techniques shorten. they become ikkyo, nikkyo, etc. Let's not say that they all become te-waza, shime-waza, or nage-waza at some stage; we know they do. But we do not practice the kata that way. We practice it is Shotokan as Kohon technique. The grading benchmark is Kihon technique.
Of course if we want to branch out and research the applications/implications that is applaudable. It is good. But if we can not string the kata together properly, as performed in Shotokan, then we are no longer Shotokan.
So how good are we people? How correct is our kihon? How correct is our kata?
How do we see our karate today?
Hopefully it will e better tomorrow, because we have gone out and introspectively researched our waza, and have been honest. We have put some effort into honing it.
That is the purpose of my questions!
To get the people on this forum, and in general, in their dojo, looking at their kihon, and making it that little bit sharper.
As Alexander says 'simple'.
No agenda. Nothing to prove. Just a desire to see Shotokan stay respected, when we the non Nihon-jin perform it.
|
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jun 22, 2012 14:57:44 GMT
What is good basics??? To me good karate is karate that uses the whole body to create effective technique. The ability to kick straight up in the air is a great ability, but that does not decide a person's level of expertise. To me there is nothing worse then seeing a bunch of 7th Dans calling themselves shihan when if fact their karate knowledge is very basic. What is also sad to see are people who have nice kata but could not punch out of a wet paper bag. Even worse than that is seeing guys win kumite matches but yet could not hurt you if they tried. The general joe here in Japan lack some very important details to their karate. They are caught up too much in tournament and do not study budo karate enough. Lastly, there is a very deep lack of understanding of proper body mechanics, which only leads to copy cat karate here in Japan. To me good basics has nothing to do with lookis. Good basics is all about using the body properly to create most effective technique you can with the least amount of effort. That takes a life time of study. Many are black belts for years, the problem is they just repeat the same year over and over again.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Jun 22, 2012 16:07:11 GMT
John,
I agree with you about the high grades with little knowledge.
BUT, there is the other side of the coin. Those with the high grade and the high level of skill, plus an understanding.
From my own history I can name one or two instantly. Many will disagree. Many will find reason to smite the individuals for whatever reason. For many years I was attached to two masters who had a great influence on me and my karate. Both were Japanese sensei.
Both had great knowledge and both also had great technical levels, and in my opinion the opinion to cascade it accurately.
These men - Masters Nishiyama and Yamaguchi (Iwaizumi).
Notably both were exacting masters about Kihon.
And therein became my benchmark. I could look at people, such as James Yabe, Ray Dalke, Bob Fusaro, Jerry Marr, and others. The influence of their technical ability was quite obvious to see in their area students.
Mr. Nishiyama had definite ideas on technical performance. I.e. from an interview with Don Warrener.
Kata:
or on Kenshusei:
Perhaps I am becoming a dinosaur, with today's apparent emphasis being on effectiveness. But at the end of the day, karate is different things to different people.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 22, 2012 18:15:54 GMT
Hi James
We have all been there, the exuberance of youth and the invincibility that we all think we have. As a youngster during 1961/62 to 1966 doing Judo then Jujitsu kihon to me was never truely understood nor explained, it was seen as boring and repetitious and all I wanted to do was fight, we thought that we were Kings. Kihon was seen as an obstacle that we had to endure to get "somewhere" not knowing where the "somewhere" was!
Then karate was introduced to me in March 1966 as a 19 year old and suddenly this maturity took over, not sure whether it preceeded the fact that I had meet my future wife who I was to marry in March 1967 or what. Oh how fast I learn't about the importance of priorities in these both events.
Hi Rob
Kihon, like Kata and Kumite is subjective so it all depends on the source of an individuals teaching. In all walks of life we do not know if something is right (or wrong) unless we experience something that makes us question what we have been taught. In the very early days "questioning" was an absolute no no.
I have over the years been fortunate enough to now question and understand Kihon and it's place within the 3 K's. I have trained with many individuals who have bestowed upon me information that I have either took on board or totally disregarded, I have ultimately been the one to decided what to retain based upon the effectiveness not necessarily as a tool to "beat" someone other than myself.
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 22, 2012 18:19:32 GMT
How good am I ? I never think about it. I am never happy with my technique or self-satisfied with my kata. I am my own biggest critic and I welcome constructive criticism from any quarter. I try to pass on what I know without ego or insisting my view is the only view. The thought that in general , the Japanese view westerners and their karate with derision, does not affect me apart from I wonder what sort of teachers that makes them. I have in the past had compliments on my karate from people whose opinion I value and I recognise the limitations my age and arthritis have placed upon me ( as my wife keeps reminding me, I am not 21 any more ). Karate continues to be a joy to me and striving to be as good as I can is my daily challenge.
|
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jun 22, 2012 20:18:07 GMT
Some comments come to mind reading this thread: 1) now on the wrong side of 60 and with 2 steel hips, of course my technique sucks compared to the nidan I used to be; 2) if you define the arena small enough, then unless you train only what is needed in that arena, you will be less than one who limits their training to just that arena. When I was nidan, i would have happily put my kihon on the line anywhere, and in fact when Japanese nidans came into my dojo, I was a bit appalled at their level of technique. Small sample, surely, but still it is a data point. I would question the equation shotokan=JKA. But I do not question the equation JKA=kihon. And that includes the JKA approach to kata; as noted, it is just uncommon kihon in dance-like floor patterns to them, as far as I can see, and that is how it is judged in their eyes. The JKA kumite is also judged by the closeness of its adherence to ideal kihon. This makes for an excellent style and excellent training. But - that training can be labelled "FWIW" by "outsiders." One strength in my mind that it does have, is that the mental aspect is much clearer; there is far less chance for "kuchi-waza" (mouth technique) in this kind of training, and that is a lack and in fact a weakness in more extensive form of karate.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 23, 2012 8:55:13 GMT
Hi Elmar and Jim
How good we are (in any walk of life) is subjective. I never think about it simply because I appreciate the positive feed back from students who I have the pleasure to teach on a guest basis.
Does it really matter what other people think anyway, are we not training for for own perfection of character, empathy, endeavour, respect others, refrain from violent behahour, etc? We are masters of our own destiny are we not?
Yes, we see from some of the postings that people do abuse their position. "How good we are" relates to so many things in life.
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Jun 24, 2012 20:41:54 GMT
Very interesting quote and one I remember reading in FAI...However I think the success of Anton Geesink had more to do with non-conformity than better basics....
There is a profound flaw in the obsessional way the Japanese pursue perfection, especially with regard to applying perfection to a martial art... and that is the ultimate transformation of things from practicality into somethless more esoteric.
I think the easiest way to explain what I mean is to take an example from organisational management. What the pursuit of perfection aims to do is the optimisation of processes to achieve maximum efficiency. A key strategy to achieve maximum efficiency is to create a consistent environment that does not change, allowing you to hone your technique to fit the particular set of circumstances. What you do is remove variety, make everything consistent, ensure there is a level playing field etc.. This is what Mr Ford did with the model-T-ford production line. He broke up the building of a car into small component bits, each team only worked on their "bit" and perfected their processes to make it as efficient as possible....
This is a very cost effective and efficient way to make a car, however as soon as the car design changes the process of impoving and optimisation has to begin again... this approach is therefore very inefficient if the car design changes frequently..
So take this analagy and apply it to Martial arts. You train in a dojo; which has a perfect flat, spring mounted polished wooden floor; you all wear the same uniform; you all attack in the same way...in fact you create pre-arranged formal sparring rituals to ensure there is absolutely no unexpected variety; You formalise your basics; you formalise your kata; you formalise your kumate; you focus on the outward perfection of form. Quality is defined by conformity and your performance is measured by a grading system, scored against how well you execute the form.
It seems to me that the cream of Japanese karateka are very very good at this. However as we all know fighting outside the rigidly controlled environment of a JKA dojo is a completely different experience, it is an exercise in chaos management and the ability to adapt has to be a key survival trait...
But if you have never trained to adapt what happens when something unexpected happens....in the case of Anton Geesink it would seem to me he was rather unexpected, he was probably a different body shape, weight, height. He proabably had a different set of strategies etc etc.. He was certainly a very talented Judoka, but for the conformist Japanese he was very unexpected...this gave him a massive advantage.
So going back to the original forum question. My personal view is that perfection is only an arbitary concept, based on personal bias and fashion. How would I compare my karate technique to the Japanese standard of form? Apples and Oranges.. Quite frankly I think the top JKA japanese instructors perform beautifully, but it is not something I am trying to emulate.
How do I think I compare against more practical aspect of Karate? I am very pleased to say I think I still have a very long way to go... looking forward to it :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 24, 2012 22:05:41 GMT
Hi Tom
The fact is he won!! His non conformity (to their strategy) WAS his better basics, his kihon. He thought outside the box.
I think the word you are looking for is possibly KAIZEN which basically relates to improvement/change for the better. From the very start the Japanese gave us a karate template to work to without regard to culture, body type etc and we have maybe unwittingly applied Kaizen to suit the environment, not just in the UK but worldwide. Whether it works is debatable? What Kaizen does not allow for is the unexpected free spirit, this free spirit won for Anton Geesink.
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by hamhead on Jun 25, 2012 13:59:41 GMT
Some interesting posts and opinions.
From my own perspective, having lived and trained in Japan for the last 15 years or so, I agree totally with what Makoto (John) says.
In addition, whether they will let on or not (even through they compliment with "oh you are more Japanese than the Japanese"), the majority of Japanese believe that if you are not Japanese, you can never be able to do Japanese karate. Not because of body type or training method or anything like that. It's simply because you are not Japanese. Just like if you were born here, lived all your life here but happen to be born to foreign parents (including second generation koreans who are impossible to tell apart) you are a foreigner. An often heard quote is that "Foreigners can also never master the language or any other aspect of Japanese culture, simply because the Japanese are a single homogenous race and it is inborn and cannot be learned". And they pretty much all actually believe this because this is what they learn at a young age.
Despite most people's image of the Japanese being so great at karate, this only applies to to those who do it full time which is not that many. The 2-3 times a weekers are no better than any other country's 2-3 times a weekers, and in fact some Japanese sensei have commented that they actually think the average level is better in the west.
Yes Kihon is important, but it is not the be all and end all of karate. As Makoto pointed out, yes the Japanese can look very pretty doing kihon as that is basically the level they are stuck at. Repeating, repeating and repeating. Whilst they may even have a good idea of the body dynamics involved, it is for a very limited number of techniques. Unlike westerners who "waste time"(in their opinion) practicing numerous techniques, in Japan you are expected to perfect one or two and use them all the time.
As Makato pointed out, I too have been utterly shocked by a large number of senior Japanese instructors who not only don't know more than a handful of kata (at best), but also believe that kata are just formal exercises, mainly for competition, and very few barely know the standard "laughable & suicidal bunkai " (As one Okinawan master called them), let alone ever bother to think about any deeper meaning or even Oyo.
Regarding the use of practical karate, there is definitely a greater understanding in the west as it has been developed further out of necessity. If you live in the safest country in the world, there is not much use for "self defense" hence the continued development of sports karate over life or death karate.
So to answer the original questions:
1) By my own standards, my karate is crap as despite teaching 6 days a week I haven't nearly done enough personal training. And Also I teach Japanese karate which is basically the watered down for competition version (though I now have two other younger instructors who have taken over all the work of teaching and I get to train on the line).
By Japanese standards, I don't know as no-one will tell me the truth to my face. And being a shallow person generally, I don't care.
2) As Makoto said, I too am made to feel like a very knowledgeable master here, not because of my vast knowledge, but because I know more about karate than most around me. But in a Western dojo I would probably be accused of being a fraud! NO WAIT. I train in Japan, so I must be great at karate, as most non Japanese have the impression that if you are Japanese or train in Japan you must be superior which is a load of cr@p.
3) In order to answer this question, one has to ask what is good karate and is good karate really only pretty kihon, kata and kumite and not much beyond that (most modern Japanese karate) or is it great ability to apply it and come up with fantastic variations of effective moves yet look nothing like shotokan karate?
Most people only have a limited amount of time they can train, so Ideally "good" karate for the majority would fall somewhere in the middle of these extremes wouldn't it? There are very few unless dedicating their whole life to karate, that can achieve both ends on the spectrum at the same time. Then those people would not be good but exceptional.
Despite Antion Geesiks idea that the secret to success is training in just basics and kata, and the Japanese doctrine that the only way to be good at karate is doing repetitive training thousands of times, I think this is more applicable to competition karate than to reality based effective karate. Of course the limited number of techniques or the limited number of kata (at most 4) you practice will be polished and perfected which is not bad, but as has been discovered on numerous occasions, will your textbook perfect kizamizuki-gyakuzuki combination really help you to defend you life?
Also, What about the rest of the vast encyclopedia of karate we have been given? Why is everyone stuck on the "K " pages?
Regards,
Hamid
|
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jun 25, 2012 22:34:56 GMT
I think another angle to this is what we get out of it. If someone has marched up and down doing a few Kihon combinations and had a great lesson and feels better then surely that's the same to someone who has done Kihon, several combinations, Kata, Bunkai, SD, Kumite, grappling, bag work etc and also feels great.
One may be spot on perfect in form, one may be learning a bit about everything, others could be learning mostly Kata to look good in competitions or the meanings beyond the form. I suppose it's what you think Karate is all about and what you want to get from it.
|
|
|
|
Post by hamhead on Jun 27, 2012 9:29:33 GMT
Mal, just like you said, what you want to get out of it on an individual basis is most important from a personal perspective. So I guess what you mean is that "is your karate good enough based on your aim for what you want to get out of it?
However I think Rob's original post was asking if we are good enough not by our own personal aims but by an arbitrary standard of being judged by Japanese JKA karate levels.
On the by,
I just re-read my own post and it seems as if I don't think Kihon is so important or their repetition is trivial (as a result of bad writing skills on my part).
I think what I was trying to say is that generally the arbitrary assessment of people is done only on their Kihon. (it has even been said that one can judge a persons level by just watching one basic technique).
Whilst I do think that without good kihon it is impossible to have good karate and the only way to have good kihon is through repeated training (of good technique), I think an assessment of one's ability should be based on all the three Ks of karate AND their ability to apply their knowledge outside of the comfort zone of their own dojo and white pyjamas.
There are those who can look very good punching the air and their kihon can be said to look great but cannot effectively apply it, what I call pretty kumite.
Can they be judged as good at karate? (Yes, if you look only at their kihon)
There are those who can also wipe the floor with most opponents in the dojo with their excellent kumite but would probably struggle on the Kihon or kata tests of a grading.
Can they be judged as good at karate? (Yes if you look only at their kumite)
(personally I don't believe the ideal that good kihon leads to gook kumite, good kumite practice leads to good kumite IMO)
There are also those who can look great at a particular kata because they repeatedly practice only the specific moves for the kata but their general kihon is mediocre and they cannot do kumite.
Can they be judged as good at karate? (Yes if you look only at their kata)
And then there are those who can take on any comers on the street and knock most people out with one punch yet cannot make it through a kata without looking like they are having a epileptic fit nor can they make any basic stances or punches correctly.
Can they be judged as good at karate? (Yes, if you look only at their effectiveness on the street)
Also, there are those who spend all their time breaking down kata and coming out with dozens of different theoretical applications for the different moves,study the history deeply, yet ask them to do a demonstration of the kata and they manage to make it look so ugly that you wonder if they even know the kata (of course they justify it as they're doing the real version and the official version is stylized)
Can they be judged as good at karate? (Yes, if you look only at their so called knowledge of karate)
So the point I guess Im trying to make is that whilst kihon is very very important in our style, it should not be the only basis for judging someone's ability or level, nor should any other single factor determine our assessment.
Another thread on here has brought up the interesting point of another aspect to judging a person as a good karateka by their ability to understand the true "spirit" of karate and what it is supposed to teach us outside of the physical, in particular related to our character.
|
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jun 27, 2012 15:08:10 GMT
Rob S, all respect for you. Right now I am too tired to keep up with this thread. But, last weekend I had the chance to be paired up with a new instructor from the JKA headquarters here in Japan. We were pressure testing kake-zuki(H5's hook punch). I let him go first. He did ok, but then I corrected his technique just a little bit. It was much stronger. He moves better than me, and has a slimmer body than me. But does he use his body as well, probably not.
BTW, did not have a clue who he was until later.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 27, 2012 20:17:15 GMT
Hello John
Who was he?
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
