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Post by fujicolt on Jun 22, 2012 17:34:10 GMT
When the JKA sent the likes of Kanazawa, Enoeda, Kase, Shirai, Nishiyama etc out into the big wide world to spread karate I am very confident they did so without feeling that their advocates would fail to spread QUALITY and produce high calibre students. Japan - no longer has the only claim to 'quality karate' - it can be found worldwide. there is Crap both here and there but good stuff clearly to be found. SO when people write 'Japan Trained' as somehow being an indisputable evidence that they are somehow 'special or supierior' basically they are full of... they are wrong and woefully unaware of the quality elsewhere. just a few thoughts to ponder folks!    |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 22, 2012 19:57:08 GMT
Hi Steve
"So when people write 'Japan Trained' as somehow being an indisputable evidence that they are somehow 'special or supierior'
basically they are full of... they are wrong and woefully unaware of the quality elsewhere."
I admire anyone who travels to Japan to experience the culture and the karate or anyone who has experienced Japanese instruction. Do you have anyone particular in mind who is "Japan Trained"?
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by kensei on Jun 22, 2012 20:00:00 GMT
when I was a kid I wanted to travel to Japan to do Karate. Then I started to make note of instructors all over the world that had things to teach...south africa, england, germany, the US, South America....you dont have to go to one place to find great instructors!
"Japanese trained" is kind of like Snobby talk for those that can afford to put off things like having a family or who are the few that can leave work for later and travel, or the even fewer that can just pick up and go...family, work and the like keep us here, but that does not mean we cant find instructors whom are just as good...if not better!
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Post by ruestir on Jun 23, 2012 14:59:55 GMT
but that does not mean we cant find instructors whom are just as good...if not better! Absolutely! I make no apologies for my karate. While I'm not happy with where I am, I don't think anyone of us who practices this art truly ever is. Probably why we keep practicing. |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 23, 2012 15:56:50 GMT
Hi Alex
I have been training for 46 years and I am very happy where I am with my karate thank you very much. Also life itself is great, I wake up each morning and think this is the first day of the rest of my life.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Rob S on Jun 23, 2012 23:24:29 GMT
When the JKA sent the likes of Kanazawa, Enoeda, Kase, Shirai, Nishiyama etc out into the big wide world to spread karate I am very confident they did so without feeling that their advocates would fail to spread QUALITY and produce high calibre students. No argument from me. BUT - you are naming 5 well known and reputed instructors, who in turn would have been responsible for the tutelage of tens of thousands. Of those many students, not all would have been 'high calibre' as either students or instructors. Thus the karate taught by their 'children' and 'grand children' is not necessarily the quality of the karate taught by them! Those same big name sensei would have allowed those lesser skilled to teach, in order to propagate the art. That is a fact we cannot ignore. Having seen many top quality instructors who are not technically perfect, and having seen some of the best technicians in the world who are actually not very good as instructors - it is a dichotomy. We do not need to apologise. But we need to define ourselves. We need to be sure of who, what and where we are in the world of modern Shotokan. What is 'Japan trained'? Do you mean trained in Japan, or trained by Japanese, or trained in the 'Japanese way'? |
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Post by th0mas on Jun 24, 2012 18:36:45 GMT
If only there was a way of harnessing the power of smugness... Allan you could make a fortune :-)
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 24, 2012 20:00:59 GMT
Hi Tom
I have.....by being very content with my life. Wealth is not measured in financial gain it is about the people around you, in particular Family. Me smug...never, you have used the wrong adjective.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by nathanso on Jun 25, 2012 4:30:50 GMT
Me smug...never, you have used the wrong adjective. FWIW, I considered your post to indicate contentedness, not smugness. A mark of a life well-lived. |
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Post by ruestir on Jun 25, 2012 11:55:53 GMT
Hi Alex I have been training for 46 years and I am very happy where I am with my karate thank you very much. Also life itself is great, I wake up each morning and think this is the first day of the rest of my life. Best Regards Allan So, there's never anything you work on or continue to polish in your technique or kata? Maybe happy is the wrong word to describe what I'm talking about? |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 25, 2012 14:20:46 GMT
Hi Alex
No! I did not say there's never anything to work on or to polish in my technique or kata. Everything in life is about improvement which I do, remember I wake up each morning and think this is the first day of the rest of my life.
If "happy" is the wrong word to describe what you are talking about let me know the alternative(s) and I will expand further.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by hamhead on Jun 25, 2012 14:27:58 GMT
I wrote an article about this in SKM a while back and it got a huge response. Can't remember which issue now...
Anyway as someone pointed out in another thread, whilst the instructors who were sent out may have been the top graduates of a very early instructors program, their level and knowledge at the time would probably not be much higher than that of a modern 3rd dan at best, but that was far higher than available anywhere else.
Nowadays the situation is different and I personally believe that karate as an effective martial art is far more developed in the west than it is in Japan (despite the amount of crap on both sides of the oceans). As has the original spirit of the art been better maintained.
Having said that, I have now changed my mind for self promoting purposes.
Regards,
Hamid "Japan" Abassalty
Japan Karate expert extreme grand master,
Japanese karate trained, Japan trained, Japan living, Japan teaching, Japanese car owner, Japanese wife and Children, Japanese home owner, Japanese business owner, Japanese electrical appliance owner, Japanese sushi lover.... Japan, Japan, Japan.
BOW TO MY SUPERIORITY you with no "Japan" connection in your official titles!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 25, 2012 16:26:30 GMT
Hi Neil
Many thanks for your observation.
Best Regards
Allan
Any thoughts yet?
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 25, 2012 16:32:26 GMT
Hi Neil
Please disregard "Any thoughts yet?" this was for Steve.
Hi Steve
Do you have anyone particular in mind who is "Japan Trained"?
Any thoughts yet?
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 25, 2012 16:48:29 GMT
Hi Hamid
The first article "Karate in Modern Japan The Real Picture" appeared in SKM issue 92 July 2007 with a follow up "Changes in Japanese Karate and Karateka" in SKM issue 93 October 2007, both great thought provoking articles.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by hamhead on Jun 26, 2012 0:16:36 GMT
Thank you for that Allan. You are an encyclopedia.
I think it is pretty obvious who Steve is talking about just by looking at another topic on this forum.
I refrained from giving my opinion before as I personally know Andre and consider him a friend.
Whilst I sometimes disagree with him on what he posts on his blogs and often let him know privately,
With regards to his karate skills, I don't think he is as good as he is just because he lived and trained in Japan but mostly because of all the effort he puts into his training. He is technique in my opinion is superior to the
majority of Japanese karateka I have seen, even ones who bewilder most westerners.
Of course a few things we see here in Japan help us to improve some aspects of our karate, compared to some of the older ways that still persist in the west, though I think it is generally more on the aesthetics side of technical perfection. Of course speed and efficiency of movement is considered a priority here (mainly for competition), but I think the major result is aesthetic.
For him, to use the "Japan trained" label is valid and a good way for a young, highly skilled instructor to advertise himself for teaching courses around the world. And why not, when the label sells?
Even if he was as good as he is now, but hadn't been to Japan, or trained personally with Asai sensei, (or had done but kept it a secret), would as many people want to train with him, especially at such a relatively young age?
Look at all the popular western instructors, the most popular are the ones who have trained in Japan and blatantly use the label (even if it was for a couple of weeks!) , and the others try to fit in the word "Japan" or "Japanese" somewhere on their resume (for example: trained in the Japanese way. or direct student of X-Japanese sensei, or trained under (then list every Japanese instructor they ever went on a course with and trained for 1 1/2 hours under)!).
Let's face it, the label sells, so it is OK to use it IMO.
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Post by nathanso on Jun 26, 2012 1:11:53 GMT
BOW TO MY SUPERIORITY you with no "Japan" connection in your official titles! I'm not impressed. I have personally eaten in a Japanese restaurant at least twice, and even used chopsticks one of those times. Athough, I have to admit, it was quite tricky getting the soup up to my mouth with them. |
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Post by ruestir on Jun 26, 2012 2:37:29 GMT
No! I did not say there's never anything to work on or to polish in my technique or kata. Everything in life is about improvement which I do, remember I wake up each morning and think this is the first day of the rest of my life. If "happy" is the wrong word to describe what you are talking about let me know the alternative(s) and I will expand further. Ok, what "I" mean when I say I don't believe anyone is truly happy with their karate is based on what you said above. Maybe satisfied is a better word to use in this context for you? If I'm unhappy with my karate, it's not a dour or depressed state. It's simply me noting that there are many more corners to chop off of the cube to continue polishing it into a sphere. |
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Post by andyupton on Jun 26, 2012 5:48:27 GMT
BOW TO MY SUPERIORITY you with no "Japan" connection in your official titles! I'm not impressed. I have personally eaten in a Japanese restaurant at least twice, and even used chopsticks one of those times. Athough, I have to admit, it was quite tricky getting the soup up to my mouth with them. Neil, What you need to do is hollow out one of the chopsticks and use it as a straw ! ;D |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 26, 2012 17:12:14 GMT
Hi Hamid
I remember the articles also but could not remember issue numbers so I visited SKM and put your name into John's search engine, bingo.
Amazing what comes up when you put someones name into a search engine!!
Keep up the great articles and hope to see some on OSS.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by hamhead on Jun 27, 2012 9:57:14 GMT
Aha, that old chestnut! The good ol search engine.
Thanks Allan.
Regards,
Hamid
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 28, 2012 22:42:36 GMT
Thank you for that Allan. You are an encyclopedia. I think it is pretty obvious who Steve is talking about just by looking at another topic on this forum.I refrained from giving my opinion before as I personally know Andre and consider him a friend. Whilst I sometimes disagree with him on what he posts on his blogs and often let him know privately, With regards to his karate skills, I don't think he is as good as he is just because he lived and trained in Japan but mostly because of all the effort he puts into his training. He is technique in my opinion is superior to the majority of Japanese karateka I have seen, even ones who bewilder most westerners. Of course a few things we see here in Japan help us to improve some aspects of our karate, compared to some of the older ways that still persist in the west, though I think it is generally more on the aesthetics side of technical perfection. Of course speed and efficiency of movement is considered a priority here (mainly for competition), but I think the major result is aesthetic. For him, to use the "Japan trained" label is valid and a good way for a young, highly skilled instructor to advertise himself for teaching courses around the world. And why not, when the label sells? Even if he was as good as he is now, but hadn't been to Japan, or trained personally with Asai sensei, (or had done but kept it a secret), would as many people want to train with him, especially at such a relatively young age? Look at all the popular western instructors, the most popular are the ones who have trained in Japan and blatantly use the label (even if it was for a couple of weeks!) , and the others try to fit in the word "Japan" or "Japanese" somewhere on their resume (for example: trained in the Japanese way. or direct student of X-Japanese sensei, or trained under (then list every Japanese instructor they ever went on a course with and trained for 1 1/2 hours under)!). Let's face it, the label sells, so it is OK to use it IMO. How totally totally wrong you where! My initiation of this thread was far from the reason you wrongly assumed. It was actually due to a very important event that has just occured that I believe has shattered (wonderfully I must add!) some illusions about 'Japan Trained' and not. It shall all become clear as soon as I have time to write it all up for you all - but I assure you - it aint anything to do with Andre Bertel I literally did LAUGH OUT LOUD! HAHA! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Watch this space folks a fantastic positive story soon to be told! |
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