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Post by fujicolt on Jun 27, 2012 18:17:25 GMT
Apparently - I am the subject of some negative remarks in a Blog by Andre Bertel.
Well:
I haven't seen it cos have been busy with FAR more important stuff - can someone send me a link.
But have to say - I have had private messages from NZ Karateka apologising for mR Bertel's outburst and stating he does not rtepresent NZ attiutudes - which is nice but I haven't actually seen AB's comments so cannot comment myself yet.
Have been out of it cos of family stuff culminiating in my son being in hospital at moment having MRI tests etc after a concussion following an ongoing health problem. He still there and we await results. Have tried to contact some friends but no answer for a while - is everything working OK here?
Ill be back soon and sorry for the back log of messages I haven't yet answered I hope you all understand!
Kensei - My Friend - can you keep an eye on everything - Dod not answering messages - so you are in charge for a while! Look after em all - they get a bit excited at times as you know!
Steve H. X
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Post by hamhead on Jun 28, 2012 13:48:36 GMT
Sorry to hear about your son. Hope he is feeling better.
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Post by andyupton on Jun 28, 2012 18:54:11 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 28, 2012 21:52:08 GMT
Cheers Andy and thanks for that but it just seems to take me to his general Blog which - I am sure you know - is rather full! and to be honest i aint got the time or desire to trawl through his rather large quantity of material telling us how he is a karateka and why and how many of us are not! I was simply interested in viewing - what i have been informed are: his derogatory remarks about me! Maybe if he is watching he wil direct me in the right way himself (I know he has my e-mail address  ) In the meantime - have any of you out there - apart from Megan and Fleur - whom I suggested they go and have a look! - ever trained with him? and how was it? I have had various reports over time! |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 28, 2012 22:37:55 GMT
Come on Steve, not much trawling to do to find it! Would have taken less time than this entry on the forum!!
Question, if you aint got the time or desire to trawl through his rather large quantity of material telling us how is is a karateka and why many of us are not WHY would you be remotely interested in who has trained with him and how was it? Who have you had various reports over time from but more importantly WHY?
WHY would you suggest to Megan and Fluer to go and have a look?
Are you really a secret/covert admirer?
Any thoughts on my previous question regarding "Japanese trained"?
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 29, 2012 10:12:00 GMT
Up until last year, I was blissfully ignorant of Andre and I personally would like to return to that blissful state ! There are a handful of well known and respected instructors whom I would not choose to train with for a variety of reasons . I am sure they have their loyal followers and defenders and are very able karate-ka. Enough !
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 29, 2012 13:59:25 GMT
Hi Jim
Respectfully suggest that you speak to Steve (maybe PM) since he opened up the "Andre Bertel Blog!" topic!!
Who we choose to train with is a personal choice, sometimes the wrong decision is made based upon Chinese (am I allowed to say that?) whispers. I am of the opinion that I can make up my own mind, I do not need to have someone go and have a look for me or give a running commentary in the form of reports!!
If I like what is being taught the chance is I will revisit, if not I will stay away period.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 29, 2012 14:02:08 GMT
I have nothing further to add.
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Post by Rob S on Jun 29, 2012 14:27:43 GMT
The sad part in all these issues, is that karate seems to become the forgotten partner. Yet, surely karate is really what it should all be about.
Why else do people log onto a computer, read others views, engage or otherwise?
Why else does anyone worry about someone thinks of them or their art?
Because of a love for this thing called karate!
But karate doesn't win, when we constantly let it become personal.
Surely it is best for these kind of threads to be closed, and let karate once again become the victor.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 29, 2012 14:48:49 GMT
Hi Rob
Totally agree 100% but someone will not let go!
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 29, 2012 21:01:32 GMT
Come on Steve, not much trawling to do to find it! Would have taken less time than this entry on the forum!! Question, if you aint got the time or desire to trawl through his rather large quantity of material telling us how is is a karateka and why many of us are not WHY would you be remotely interested in who has trained with him and how was it? Who have you had various reports over time from but more importantly WHY? WHY would you suggest to Megan and Fluer to go and have a look? Are you really a secret/covert admirer? Any thoughts on my previous question regarding "Japanese trained"? Best Regards Allan Allan you sad prejudging without knowledge (as usual) Jerk - Back of my friend cos on this one you aint gonna come out - well shall we just say - in the positive. I have pm'd you with my personal phone number - please phone me you arrogant, unjustifiably opinionated sad man. I am not spending more than a few minutes a day here for good reason - you fool. and those few minutes are to carry out a commitment I gave to a friend to cover this site whilst he nurses his Wife through terminal cancer! I aint gonna waste them chasing down Andre Bertels sad 'bleats' you idiot! Allan you are - as in the past - proving to be an absolute jerk - take a day off and get some facts afore you comment you silly man. Phone me and I am sure that IF you have any calibre at all YOU will be posting an apology here! - Good Grief!  |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 29, 2012 22:15:02 GMT
Hi Steve
Read your PM!!, best thing for me to do is ignore your request since I would be paying for your unpleasant (your words) telephone conversation to compliment your unpleasant name calling posting. Like I said before I have advanced past the "your dad is bigger than my dad scenario" we experienced at school.
I think this last post (and PM) of yours is an indication that this thread definitely needs to be closed before someone else ends up with your wrath simply because you do not like their questioning or reasoning opinion. Lets agree to disagree, I like Andre Bertel and you do not.
This is not an apology to you but I apologise to all other forum members if THEY think that "as in the past - proving to be an absolute jerk" has been evident when I have posted. Here is me thinking, no knowing that I have contributed positively to these forums. Like mine your postings and everyone else's are simply an opinion and I respect that, what I do not respect is your unwarranted written comments as to who YOU think I am simply because I played devils advocate.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by hamhead on Jun 30, 2012 0:09:56 GMT
What the..... STEVE?
I am shocked to see this kind of reply to Allan's post which was in no way rude IMO. Of all the posts I have seen from him, he always seems courteous and polite, even when disagreeing.
A complete OVER REACTION Steve. I think you may be under a lot of stress both from the Andre issue and other personal issues which is understandable.
Maybe you should be the one taking a rest and the one apologizing.
Otherwise, this kind of post can only lead to one imagining what you wrote to Andre in your "off-line" communication and if this is the way you "communicate" then what he said about you and his reaction is likely justified.
I'm disappointed Steve, because even though I have never met you, I did respect you from what I had heard about you from others (and read).
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 30, 2012 0:31:20 GMT
Hi Steve Read your PM!!, best thing for me to do is ignore your request since I would be paying for your unpleasant (your words) telephone conversation to compliment your unpleasant name calling posting. Like I said before I have advanced past the "your dad is bigger than my dad scenario" we experienced at school. I think this last post (and PM) of yours is an indication that this thread definitely needs to be closed before someone else ends up with your wrath simply because you do not like their questioning or reasoning opinion. Lets agree to disagree, I like Andre Bertel and you do not. This is not an apology to you but I apologise to all other forum members if THEY think that "as in the past - proving to be an absolute jerk" has been evident when I have posted. Here is me thinking, no knowing that I have contributed positively to these forums. Like mine your postings and everyone else's are simply an opinion and I respect that, what I do not respect is your unwarranted written comments as to who YOU think I am simply because I played devils advocate. Best Regards Allan Hi Steve Read your PM!!, best thing for me to do is ignore your request since I would be paying for your unpleasant (your words) telephone conversation to compliment your unpleasant name calling posting. Like I said before I have advanced past the "your dad is bigger than my dad scenario" we experienced at school. I think this last post (and PM) of yours is an indication that this thread definitely needs to be closed before someone else ends up with your wrath simply because you do not like their questioning or reasoning opinion. Lets agree to disagree, I like Andre Bertel and you do not. This is not an apology to you but I apologise to all other forum members if THEY think that "as in the past - proving to be an absolute jerk" has been evident when I have posted. Here is me thinking, no knowing that I have contributed positively to these forums. Like mine your postings and everyone else's are simply an opinion and I respect that, what I do not respect is your unwarranted written comments as to who YOU think I am simply because I played devils advocate. Best Regards Allan Allan - just step up and phone me and yes - I gladly prewarn you I will be telling you how very 'shall we say' angry I am with you, without the facts, posting what you have and continue to do - but then I shall enlighten you and await your apology. Step up and at least be man enough to talk to me! Good Grief! |
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 30, 2012 0:42:04 GMT
AND for everyone else whom amy well be thinking 'Steve, why you pushing this?'
Tis because, I and others here have worked very hard to make this site a place where we can be open, honest etc with each other and thus really 'Argue' points about this thing we all love called Shotokan Karate.
We do this often by, contacting each other off line via Pm's , E-mails and often the phone and clarifying things so that, unlike Allan here - we don't make prejudgements and get personal,
Allan - for me - fell way outside of that so yes I am gonna respond - simply because he is so very wrong and short of facts.
Folks, I still aint seen it but to be honest I aint really interested in an Andre Bertel rant (even if tis about me) he does it so often.
But
I am interested in Allan Shepherd getting his facts right afore maligning me wrongly - that's just plain prejudicail bullying and if not responded to it will prevail! IMHO!
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Post by hamhead on Jun 30, 2012 1:31:34 GMT
I'm sorry Steve, I have re-read Allan's post over again and maybe I'm thick or something but what "facts" are you talking about? What single "fact" does he mention.
Where did he "prejudicially bully" you? What prejudice? Against what?
Maybe I'm thick skinned but I don't see anything in his post that suggest anything other than, at worst a Devil's advocate prodding of you for answers to some understandable question based on what you had said.
I really cant see what got your goat?
Now I don't know if you guys have some bad blood between you and this flared it up but It's probably better to end this thread sooner rather than later for the sake of your dignities (or at least for the person's who is losing it).
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 2:19:15 GMT
Im lost as well....perhaps any personal issues tween the two of you be best served PM's and Allan...would a phone call kill you.....er never mind, knowing steve it might....in the words of the Great Ghandi "chillith out dudes"!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 30, 2012 8:31:05 GMT
Hello Steve
Call me what you like, I have absolutely no intention of giving you a telephone call. You seem to have already set out your stall. You say "we" don't make prejudgements and get personal!! YOU are a hypocrite simply because that is exactly what YOU have done with Andre Bertel and now me. Who will be next and for what I ask?
If you indeed have any "facts" that I and others should know post them and enlighten us all. EVERYONE on this site is working very hard for it to be successful by being open and honest etc using arguement, debate and whatever is required WITHIN certain boundaries, you have EXCEEDED these boundaries with your apparent personal issues on an open public forum.
Hamid and James, thank you for your very valid observations and comments. For the record, prior to reading Steve's postings I had no knowledge of him so this is not about "some bad blood" between us.
Hamid and James has summed this situation up, I personally for what it is worth think you cannot see the wood for the trees. Read again Hamid and James's observations, take a deep breath and deal with everything else that is going on around you and come back with something POSITIVE that can take this site forward.
Steve one word of advice, again for what it is worth. Consider other people's real life situations BEFORE you cast unwarranted aspersions upon them. You do not know me so please do not make out that you do.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by malk103 on Jun 30, 2012 9:02:09 GMT
I read most of this with the same disgust as when I read the AB blog.
Everyone has had their say on AB so maybe time to call it a day and agree to disagree agreeably!
Normally in cases like this there are "hidden" things that only a few are aware of, I believe that the original PM from AB was requested to remain non-public (as should all PM's)
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Post by dek1 on Jun 30, 2012 9:04:12 GMT
Guys is someone who does not post on this site worth this topic and its content? I come onto the forum to learn and to be honest this topic is not learning. The people arguing on this forum have all helped me in my Karateka journey by posting and getting me thinking about my training and my chosen martial art. For me to read this topic detracts from the good work you all do by being here. In the interest of good will and the future of the forums membership I think this topic should be removed.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 30, 2012 9:19:28 GMT
Seconded.
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 12:43:14 GMT
I am in a weird spot here gang, Being a Junior Admin and all that.....but here is my two cents worth.... A) Most of the issues towards AB are from private issues that some of us are not privy to and I personally had about 70% good experiences with AB and the rest bad...so I see both sides of the fence....that being said...I think we have had our fill of the issues with AB being vented here...so move on! B) I think Steves issues with Allan are a mix of PM's and on line chat, at least thats what I can see so lets let them sort this out...and my suggestion to the both of them if I may is that they do it privatly via PM's or that aformentioned Phone call....or conversly they just agree to drop the whole thing and move on because....really....how important was it in the first place. C) I admire the respect and defence that AB gets from his people, it shows me that even if I think its misguided...he seems to have some people that care and in the end thats a good thing for him and them. and lastly...the OSS was established as a site that we could ALL come to and share our ideas. Karate is a subject that raises great passion and great debate. We may all(in general) come from Shotokan but as most of us have found that is not a single lineage in common but a rainbow of lineages and ideas. The beutiful part of that is that we can all build from that and we can all bring something unique to the table...or we can bicker and act like old ladies ( no insult intended to any old ladies that train and write here I assure you). I have learned (as was just demonstrated) that someone can say something here and it can be taken out of context and or turned around in someones mind and create an issue. The subject of AB has pretty much been hashed out and rehashed and he is not letting this drop, so lets be the bigger people and be the first to let it drop. Perhaps if Andre sees that we have gotten past this and we simply dont care about fighting with him via the web (childish and silly if you ask me) then he can move on and not blog mean things about others and or PM mean things to others in Defense of his "honor" which was never in question in the first place. As for Allan and Steve, obviously you two have an issue to work out...or an issue to drop.....no matter what way you look at it, perhaps this is best worked out in private, off line, or simply agree to drop it...after all...is it really that important?  |
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Post by bagpuss on Jul 3, 2012 0:15:07 GMT
This thread has really knocked me. Online arguing never goes anywhere good. I've been lurking for a while and trying to soak up like a sponge some of the great thought provoking info and advice and am kind of shy, but wanted to say move on. Fujicolt, I am nowhere in your league, but you have to admit it's not cricket to come here and raise a thread about nothing karate related and then 'pretend' you never cared anyway. If you were that bothered you could have checked AB's blog yourself so not sure what your game is. Then to dive in to personal name calling is cheap. I respected all your input up to now, but now...  I don't know the background, but to call out someone to phone you etc is something leaves bad taste. Only one person in public on this forum has gone in to name calling chest beating to a fellow member. Come on guys, I know my point might feed it, which is not my intention at all (so am sorry) but drop it or play your games in private. You have a great site here and just wanted to say my piece. Fujicolt you have so much to offer that is good. Don't ruin it. Am bit put off tbh and will go back to lurker, this is why. |
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 3, 2012 12:49:10 GMT
If you got over your "shyness" long enough to open an account just to post this then please stay and help make the forum what you want it to be, rather than just "having a pop" then dissapearing again (which just ends up looking suspicious).
If you've been lurking for a while then you know that (normally) we're a friendly bunch and easy to get on with even when not in aggreement, and that everybody, despite their level of experience has something to contribute.
(Also, if you've been lurking a while you should be aware about signing your real name to your posts. Thanks).
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Post by kensei on Jul 3, 2012 12:56:11 GMT
Fact is that this thread is dead people, move along....Nothing to see here!
I am waiting for my "Close thread" powers from the head mod...but as of now lets just say that this one is off to the grave yeard of "way past its prime".
Seeing as Steve is busy with real family business and such and the original issue is kind of silly...well lets kill it completely.
and ass for Bagpuss, I attribute the outburst by many here (myself included at times) to being Welsh...which is a ticking time bomb of occurances that make you think we have some mental issues that creap up from time to time. Our self control is normally fantastic then like a tick it fires back up and our typing gets away on us. ;D
Time to let this one die!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 3, 2012 13:59:42 GMT
Just as a matter of curiosity, is there anybody here who isn't of the Welsh blood (we seem to be somewhat over represented ) |
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Post by malk103 on Jul 3, 2012 15:43:55 GMT
I'm 25% Welsh - is it.... ;D
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Post by bagpuss on Jul 3, 2012 23:53:11 GMT
If you got over your "shyness" long enough to open an account just to post this then please stay and help make the forum what you want it to be, rather than just "having a pop" then dissapearing again (which just ends up looking suspicious). If you've been lurking for a while then you know that (normally) we're a friendly bunch and easy to get on with even when not in aggreement, and that everybody, despite their level of experience has something to contribute. (Also, if you've been lurking a while you should be aware about signing your real name to your posts. Thanks). Please, I don't want to cause hassle. Looking suspicious, having to provide my name, threats to make a call at home, name calling is exactly what confirms my shyness and why it is better to lurk on some fourms. I'm done. Sorry. I don't feel I have much to contribute, I was just new to this and shokotan. I will take a step back, it's intimidating as it was and I was wrong to say anything anyway when I know nothing. Sorry Fujicolt. Take care x |
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Post by makoto on Jul 4, 2012 4:13:04 GMT
I forgot the popcorn. Damn
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Post by malk103 on Jul 4, 2012 8:26:14 GMT
Bagpuss - a few of the recent posts have been out of character and flare ups like this are very rare here.
You obviously think enough of the site to come in and say what you did so please don't feel like you don't have anything to contribute.
This forum is open to all Karateka of all experiences and points of view, hopefully you can make an input from time to time.
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