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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 19:54:15 GMT
got a funny story and a comment to make.....
The other day I was at my daughters school and met a parent of one of my daughters school mates for the first time. He was a younger guy, about 30ish and was wearing a TKD jacket when he came to pick up his daughter. I was wearing a JKA Jacket and came in to pick up my daughter.
We were introduced as the school teacher knows I teach Karate and this guy teaches TKD. I felt like "oh, cool a fellow martial artist"...until the teacher introduced us...
She said "oh, mr.X this is mr. james, he is Emmas father and teaches Karate" and "mr. james this is MrX and he teaches TKD"! First off I was impressed that she knew that their was a difference, or maybe she did not but was just "going with it"...but what happened next cracked me up and also made me a bit embarassed for Traditional Martial arts.....
He leaned in to shake my hand and kind of nudged the teacher out of the way and said " Not Mr. X, Master X....." the smile went off my face as I shook his hand.
Those that know me know I have a bad temper and dont suffer fools very well...he kind of got it both barrels in a way that he understood and the teacher did not...I said "I dont have a master, and you may call me Renshi James" as I smiled and turned my back on him trying to look as pleasent as possible for the teachers sake.
This leads me to one of my biggest pet peaves, and the reason that I really did what I did....I hate when people call themselves a title honorific and use it like they think it means something. A teacher in Japan is a Sensei, in China they are Sifu and in Korea they are Sabeom or Sabuk, but that is "teacher" or instructor not "MASTER" like in the states. He is 30...not a master but he maybe a teacher.
I never refer to myself as "Sensei James", and if asked by students what my name is its "James". I am called Sempai by some but I never say "my name is Sempai James"....I loath when people refer to themselves by a title that is a honorific. and do so in the third person!
Its one of my pet peaves!!!!
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Post by nathanso on Jun 30, 2012 20:30:44 GMT
Whenever someone refers to themselves as "Master", I always assume that their last name is Bates.
To be honest, I am always amused when ISKF people refer to "Master Okazaki". When I trained with him in the 1960s, he told us that the last person who should be called "Master" was Gichin Funakoshi, and he always referred to Nakayama as "Mr. Nakayama."
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 20:41:06 GMT
I recall once being in a Dojo in the states (I live in Canada) and a senior student looked at a junior and said "you have to call Sensei Master when he comes in"...the look of "OH REALLY" came across the junior students face. The senior saw this and being the giant moron that he was he insisted and said it was "tradition"..which it is not!
The punch line is the WHITE senior was talking to a Black junior belt and the rest of us were kind of like "Really, you dont get it you giant Duche!"....when Yaguchi and Okizaki came in they accepted Sensei from all of us equally and no one said "master" that day but the senior and he got some looks from both instructors!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 30, 2012 20:41:25 GMT
Horrible to witness or contemplate. My students refer to me as sensei in class but only to attract my attention. Outside of class they know i am not so far up my own backside as to tolerate it. Both my son and grandsons train with me and often forget and call me Dad/Grandad. I never correct them, I am far more proud of those honorifics anyhow.
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 20:51:16 GMT
as you should be....my wife has a few names for me as well...NONE have anything to do with Karate
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Post by malk103 on Jun 30, 2012 20:55:32 GMT
I always think of titles like Master to be tagged to someone who has devoted most of their lives to Karate and have given a lot back to Karate. It probably shouldn't be said of most people, even the few who have possibly "earnt" it - as they should hopefully feel embarressed by it. It should certainly never be demanded by someone! I heard of a Sensei who wanted his students to address him as Master and even asked it from the parents, luckily my Army wife friend told him where to shove it!
As I have been instructing this year as a fairly new Dan grade then I haven't asked anyone to call be Sensei as I don't feel that I have earnt it yet. Gradually students are refering to me as Sensei or using it to get my attention. Another grading looms in August so my testing will be my students grading.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 30, 2012 22:48:58 GMT
I was introduced to someone in the coffee shop as the man who runs the karate school in their village, the woman asked "what should we refer to you as, Grand Master?" to which the reply was always going to be "I tend to answer to Bob". FFS I'm just a bloke who does karate and even then it only counts in the dojo, what are people thinking? I tend to refer to my sensei as sensei in conversation with other people from my group as it's what I've go used to. My students refer to me as senpai when we are being formal or Mr Davis at other times whilst in the dojo but outside I'm just Bob. I have tried to get my wife to adopt the Grand Master honorific but to no avail as yet (still, we live in hope )
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Post by Rob S on Jun 30, 2012 22:55:44 GMT
Yes but when we look around ... so many call themselves by the honourifics ... which has to be a definite No No!
Accepting that I get slated for pushing semantics, and sticking to a harder line re evaluation of karate (other threads) there is no real excuse for calling yourself an honourific. On these forums, FB, Twitter or wherever.
We are all the same ... students of karate!
Grade means diddly ...
We just are all waling the same road, perhaps at different places. But the same road.
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Post by nathanso on Jun 30, 2012 23:17:08 GMT
Years ago, we had a "Sensei Roast" for our instructor in honor of his impending wedding. One of the gifts for the bride-to-be was a black belt with 4 red stars at each end, so that she would be "General Sensei" and therefore always be able to pull rank on him.
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Post by hamhead on Jul 1, 2012 0:24:52 GMT
Honourifics in Japan are titles bestowed on you only by others out of respect, to indicate your position and not something you give yourself to distinguish yourself from others. You should never refer to yourself by an honourific as it is not humble to do so (The only exception is sometimes school teachers or doctors etc use it when talking to very young kids, for clarity of the subject)
Whilst sensei means teacher, it is not exclusively used for teachers. It is used for doctors, lawyers, architects, politicians etc, or any other person who has a high standing in society as someone who is knowledgable in a certain field. Thus the title sensei has a deeper cultural context in Japanese society. The honorific is always used after the name and never before. It is used with the family name, not the first name, but for some reason, Japanese people seem to think that all foreigners want to be called by their first names and thus tag it after their first names rather than family names (Basically due to their impression of American culture being casual and always using first names only). This sounds really strange to me and I personally try to discourage it, but basically in my case with a family name like Abassalty, it is too difficult for them to remember and I am often reduced to Hamiddo Sensei instead of the correct Abasoruti Sensei.
One question which has been debated on other forums is whether westerners should even use these titles in their own countries. Just because they do karate, it doesn't suddenly make them Japanese, nor does it make their students Japanese, so their is no cultural relevance and so are they appropriate or are they just for ego?
We from time to time get orders (mainly from American customers) who request to have titles or honorifics on their belts. I always point out that it is considered rude (not humble) to have a title on your own belt. However it is OK to have a title on your belt if the belt is presented to you by students. In this case there is another kanji added, Okuri, which means presented. So you can see it is very important to remain humble.
Hope this post adds clarification
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Post by dek1 on Jul 1, 2012 6:53:08 GMT
Having trained for a short time and only now being a 4thkyu (had to get that in as it makes me glow lol). If posting on on our clubs FB or in class about an instructor we use the title Sensei but once class is finished they become ordinary Joe Bloggs incl our Japanese guests. In fact I could see a good talking too if I even used the title Sensei to address them outside a dojo. All of the instructors i have trained with (now at 18 different instructors) would cringe at the stuff I have read in this post. Our club has Robert Steagles 5th Da as a guest instructor this morning. Who from the moment i pick him up he wil be called lots of things incl short stuff, wee ginger, a bhegger (football term) and lots more not fit for this forum but once we enter the dojo not the changing room but the dojo he becomes Sensei for the whole class. Then after on the way home it returns to normal names. These normal names are Scottish banter in fact a term of respect because of you did not like someone you wouldnt have the banter with them. Sorry if this rambing and gone way of topic but its early.
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Post by kensei on Jul 1, 2012 14:20:41 GMT
No Derek, that was a perfect example of what we like to see. The Self use of Honorifics is rude, ego driven and basically makes the person using it look silly!
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Post by malk103 on Jul 1, 2012 16:39:48 GMT
Thanks for that Hamid, a bit embarressing for me to use Sensei after my last name as that would make me King Sensei..... I'm more likely to introduce myself as the instructor or assistant instructor. I think it works mostly like a classroom where the teacher would either be Sir or Miss, although it would be interesting to see what people think of a term for "Instructor" if we were to not use Sensei? I read in someones book how their Sensei had a Japanese guest over to the UK and the Sensei refered to the guest as Sensei. After the guest left the Karateka asked about their rank/grade etc, the reply was that the guest didn't practice Karate or any MA, he called him Sensei due to being senior and respected. I think all of the Dojo's I have visited nobody has addressed themselves as Sensei, the last chap made a point of coming over and offered a friendly introduction. (Wells Shotokan) I think if I visited somewhere and they asked to be called Grand Master Supreme Sensei then I would be tempted to leave. Was it a tradition to take a gift to a Sensei if you were visiting or invited to their Dojo? Is that ever practiced these days. I guess you wouldn't want to turn up at anyone's Dojo without asking permission first but wondering what other marks of respect were practiced and if any have remained. I have seen another MA club and other classes have hand shaking added to the greeting and at the end of each lesson. Students would be expected to approach the Sensei/teacher to shake hands upon arriving and before leaving. Not everyone gets all of the bowing as marks of respect so maybe this works better or possibly a bit over the top.
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Post by kensei on Jul 1, 2012 17:20:45 GMT
Go on face book and type "SHIHAN" into the name search...watch how many people use this title in their name bar....its sad! Not only that but one such young man, probably 30 years old, got into it with me today about his use of the title. And when he could not defend himself, he turned to insult and swearing! Made me laugh alot!
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Post by hamhead on Jul 2, 2012 5:44:01 GMT
As I mentioned before, the title sensei has a deep cultural meaning and ramifications in Japan. In Japan you don't become "Joe Blogg"s or "Ya wee shite yuu" or "one of the lads" when you leave the dojo, however close your relationship with your students. You remain sensei, even after the student has long left you, is now in a very senior position or whatever the circumstances. With the title also comes a lot of responsibility and (sometimes unreasonable) expectations especially in front of your students.
This is what I meant before by the argument made that since the culture in western clubs is completely different, is it necessary to use the title sensei other than for ego boosting purposes or to make it feel more authentic and Japanese? Can't you just call them Mr. or Ms. if you want to be formal. Is it odd to show respect to someone in the dojo and then treat them as an ordinary person outside? Does putting on a dogi and standing in front of the class magically transform them into superhero sensei, but once they change back they are just plain Ginga Bobby? After all you wouldn't call your school teacher Mr. or Sir in School or your Doctor Doctor in the clinic, and then by their first name on the street (expletives aside in the case of teachers).
Is the bowing necessary if it is not part of the culture? And what about hand shakes? Isn't that some weird replacement for the bow (which would have been unnecessary in the first place)? The only places I know where people go up and shake hands one by one is at a wedding or funeral (or maybe after church to tell the minister what a great sermon it was).
If you are going to do the whole Japanese thing then why not do it properly the whole way instead of half arsed and then saying "oh well were not Japanese"?
How much should one's own culture influence behavior inside and outside the dojo?
(I make these points playing devils advocate here: Personally, when I trained in Scotland we called our instructor sensei in the dojo and Gordon outside. We had a very close relationship because we all socialized as a club after every training session and even though I called him by his first name outside of the club I still had a lot of respect for him (and still do) and as well as being my instructor, became a great friend and the first person I would turn to for advice. To me that was the ideal and I really miss that.)
Regarding giving gifts when visiting another dojo in Japan, it depends on the circumstances. If your instructor has recommended you visit another teacher then you would generally come with a letter of introduction from him and an "Omiyage"(Souvenir) from your local region or maybe even something from your instructor as well.
It is always best to arrange to attend before, rather than just turning up out of the blue and if you are not local then again the Omiyage is a nice gesture for when you meet for the first time.
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Post by elmar on Jul 3, 2012 19:19:54 GMT
IMHO, in all cases, "respect" is shown by actions more than words, and again, in all cases, it is something given rather than something demanded or taken. The form can be culturally determined, and be culturally pure or some mix - it doesn't matter - it is the heart of the actions performed by the person showing the respect that matters, even if the action is "inappropriate" to the situation, e.g. using "sensei" in non-MA related conversation outside of the dojo outside of Japan. So I have no problem with partial importation of Japanese culture into a place where an art derived from Japanese roots is practiced. But I do have a problem with arrogance on the part of those receiving "respect." As soon as the smell of such self-holiness arises, respect itself vanishes, and is replaced only with a hollow shell of outward behavior. So a person doesn't introduce themselves with a "shogo" or any other title, but with their name; titles are declared by people facilitating introductions, and as carefully as possible so as to avoid giving embarrassment or requiring deprecatory comments by the person being introduced. Again - all imho.
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Post by kensei on Jul 3, 2012 19:49:36 GMT
could not agree more Elmar!
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Post by markg on Jul 5, 2012 0:28:46 GMT
IMHO, in all cases, "respect" is shown by actions more than words, and again, in all cases, it is something given rather than something demanded or taken. The form can be culturally determined, and be culturally pure or some mix - it doesn't matter - it is the heart of the actions performed by the person showing the respect that matters, even if the action is "inappropriate" to the situation, e.g. using "sensei" in non-MA related conversation outside of the dojo outside of Japan. So I have no problem with partial importation of Japanese culture into a place where an art derived from Japanese roots is practiced. But I do have a problem with arrogance on the part of those receiving "respect." As soon as the smell of such self-holiness arises, respect itself vanishes, and is replaced only with a hollow shell of outward behavior. So a person doesn't introduce themselves with a "shogo" or any other title, but with their name; titles are declared by people facilitating introductions, and as carefully as possible so as to avoid giving embarrassment or requiring deprecatory comments by the person being introduced. Again - all imho. "Respect itself vanishes"-- a very nice phrase, and hits the nail on the head. The terms of "Sensei" and "Shihan" have context as well, and sometimes used in different contexts. For example, my teacher Taniguchi-Sensei, is always referred to as "Sensei". If the word "Sensei" is used in a group discussion it is assumed that it is about Taniguchi-Sensei. It's like the E Street band talking about "The Boss". There is no mistake who people are referring to. If I want to talk about my other teachers, I would use "Mori-Sensei" or "Yoshioka-Sensei". In those cases, I need to insert their surname. I have a good friend who is the head of his karate organization and his teachers refer to him as "Shihan", to differentiate him from the other teachers. When I see those guys, I use the word "Shihan" to refer to their teacher. They understand I respect their teacher, and address him by the title that they all use. He does not replace or outrank Taniguchi-Sensei in my mind, and I have spoken no karate heresy (I hope). Titles have contexts. Sometimes we can bend a little to cultures that exist within the greater contexts of karate.
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Post by kensei on Jul 5, 2012 3:21:33 GMT
Mark have you ever seen your friend that is refered to as "Shihan" using this talking about himself or putting it in writing as in "Shihan wants yout to....and Shihan is requesting....."?
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Post by markg on Jul 5, 2012 8:30:32 GMT
Mark have you ever seen your friend that is refered to as "Shihan" using this talking about himself or putting it in writing as in "Shihan wants yout to....and Shihan is requesting....."? No no... I have never heard my friend refer to himself as Shihan. He is a great karate guy and extremely talented. Excellent teacher too, but never refers to himself with any title.
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Post by th0mas on Jul 5, 2012 11:52:17 GMT
I refer to myself as Shihan Tsar Th0mas the benighted and benign one and make a point of talking about myself in 3rd person to all who I meet.
They refer to me as a w*nker.. which I believe is an ancient English honorific.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 5, 2012 12:22:06 GMT
Although not all that uncommon (there are a lot of them about ;D)
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Post by kensei on Jul 5, 2012 13:17:18 GMT
UK English = Wanker....Canadian English = Tool! I really have met a few who refer to themselves in the thrid person and use titles.....I also work alot with Chiropractors...in my job...and alot of them do the same....Dont get it and never will just makes you look like a TOOL! ;D
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 5, 2012 15:11:25 GMT
So, given that I'm comfortable with being thought a "tool" and/or (insert insult of choice here) does that mean that I can be a "Grand Master" after all? My wife will be pleased
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Post by kensei on Jul 5, 2012 16:24:48 GMT
Go for it Bob.....my wife thinks I am tool and I dont have a fancy title yet!
Well other than Tool!
I am now looking for suggestions as to a suitable title and will get back to you once my wife approves the new "Sir Tool" or what ever I come up with!
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