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Post by malk103 on Jul 28, 2012 20:56:43 GMT
Anyone watching it?
I'm not much of a sports watcher but like some of it, caught some of the Judo earlier which was good.
It's a shame we arn't in it! I wonder if those MA that are included will get new recruits who are inspired by the games?
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Post by nathanso on Jul 28, 2012 21:15:47 GMT
Being a old dinosaur, I think that the excessive sportification of karate should be avoided. Additionally, I prefer the old shobu ippon rules to the WKF competition format which would be used in the Olympics (although I am happy to admit that may well be a result of my being an old fart). Here is an interesting article about kendo and the Olympics. |
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Post by elmar on Jul 29, 2012 13:18:14 GMT
If they decided to create kenjutsu (not kendo) as a sport, I can see it - electronic armor to register not only the location but the force, direction and timing of the blow. In the time before the Tokugawa Shogunate, if you won, you were "correct" - and kenjutsu is much more about having the edge on the other guy harder and faster than they could get it onto you. Yes, it would be "uglier", but it would be much more "real" than the current subjective kendo. I'd love to see it. |
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Post by kensei on Jul 29, 2012 16:42:10 GMT
If they decided to create kenjutsu (not kendo) as a sport, I can see it - electronic armor to register not only the location but the force, direction and timing of the blow. In the time before the Tokugawa Shogunate, if you won, you were "correct" - and kenjutsu is much more about having the edge on the other guy harder and faster than they could get it onto you. Yes, it would be "uglier", but it would be much more "real" than the current subjective kendo. I'd love to see it. isnt that the same issues with Karate however, the fast guy wins and the slower more powerful guy gets no point even though his point may not land as fast, one punch and the faster guy is sleeping! I know we have one instructor who is fast as lightning, but the few "Dojo matches" he went toe to toe with a stronger guy made him look weak! He beat the same guys in tournaments, but in real fights he would not last! Does this not suggest sport Karate has a few issues as well! |
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Post by elmar on Jul 29, 2012 22:18:25 GMT
..., the fast guy wins and the slower more powerful guy gets no point even though his point may not land as fast, one punch and the faster guy is sleeping! That's a karate problem, not a sword problem - as you know, and as if often said in knife circles, the first cut wins, due to the effect on the receiver's mind. Even paper cuts take your mind away from everything else! I was responding to Neil's link to the kendo/Olympics debate. Nevertheless, Karate could do the same, but it would require impact measurement on the striking surfaces (e.g. hands, feet, elbows, and knees) combined with separable identified contact targets (so a face hit counts more than a hit to the thigh), and a scoring system that included impact energy, target struck and number of hits in order to win (sum weighted sum, iow). |
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Post by kensei on Jul 30, 2012 13:14:07 GMT
Nevertheless, Karate could do the same, but it would require impact measurement on the striking surfaces (e.g. hands, feet, elbows, and knees) combined with separable identified contact targets (so a face hit counts more than a hit to the thigh), and a scoring system that included impact energy, target struck and number of hits in order to win (sum weighted sum, iow). Or maybe just better training for some judges. I am not an advicate for full contact Karate, seen to many punch drunk Thai fighters to change my mind on that one...but giving a point for tip tap stuff when a crushing blow followed is kind of silly. Case in point, I corner judged a fight a few years back that saw one big dude against a smaller faster fighter, the big guy was pretty much the target of pit pat attacks that would not have downed him. At one point the faster guy lunges in and "scored with a jab to the chest" and three of the corner judges called it, a split second before they called it the bigger guy landed a solid shot to the smaller guys liver! You could see the smaller guy ate a hard shot but the big guy barely felt the fast jab. Three corners called for the tip tap punch and I scored the tree dropper! The center ref scored it first in and gave the little guy the point. The idea of Karate I thought was not to play tag...I might be wrong however  |
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Post by makoto on Jul 30, 2012 16:26:57 GMT
Yes karate should be in the olympics. But, sorry there are very few sundome rules that I would agree with getting into the olympics. Playing tag is boring and looks stupid to those who do not do karate. If it is going to be non contact kumite, then it should be one that there would be no doubt if the technique was actually a wazari or not. Sorry, but running back and then jumping up in the air and scoring a point with a punch is not a wazari to me.
But, hey, I think the Olympics has sold out to some extent. It is always looking for new ways to make money and add new and exciting sports, while other less popular sports are getting dropped. Does a sport have to be spectator friendly to be in the Olympics. I think not. I think a sport should have a world wide following and history first.
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Post by Rob S on Jul 30, 2012 16:45:35 GMT
Karate if it was in the Olympcs would degenerate into Taekwondoesque shiai.
Karate as a Budo and not a sport cannot really compete in that arena.
Karate as a sport would be virtually impossible to score correctly without 'knockdowns' and 'good 'takedowns' and 'follow throughs'. This will not happen, it would just become the game of tag eluded to above.
Athletic kicks already win in WKF circles, and even though Judo has the Ippon win, an Ippon in karate is harder to define than a throw with the opponent landing on their back that is easy to see,
Karate is better off staying as Budo, and leaving other sports to the Olympics.
Also - who would get into the IOC? WKF! How many karate-ka on this board as Shotokan practitioners compete in WKF circles? How many Shotokan performers of Ippon Shobu variety do well in the WKF arena? Not so many. Yes, I know Nagaki Shinji won at world level, but he is unusual. Most of the winners in Canada's KC/NKA or in the JKF circles in Japan are usually from the other styles, so I imagine that is mirrored worldwide.
So Olympic inclusion actually could be the end of Shotokan in the world of attracting future generations.
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Post by kensei on Jul 30, 2012 18:29:21 GMT
let me play at this a bit here...being a majority Shotokan group we made a very bad mistake when it comes to "what if"'ing the oly thing.
First off I am not going to debate if it would be good or not..I see it as a huge marketing idea to get more people in the door and the educate them on real Karate training....but for me its a even more important question that has to be asked...and back to my first statement..
If Karate was to be a Olympic event...which Karate would we be seeing?
Kyokushin probably has the best chance with their knock down battles, more spicy than TKD but I have never seen nice Kata from a Kyokushin fighter before, no offence...they just excell at different areas.
Then you have the problem of Shito, Wado, Goju, Uechi, Seido, and the HUGE list of styles and the like. who judges...back to a style issue....what events....Kata (Forget it) Kumite ( to what degree) Kobudo (not going to happen) Tamishi wara (Could be interesting)..
The very reason Judo and Tae Kwon Do are in the Olys is they each have one or two governeing bodies and they are all pretty much teh same style.
Karate wont EVER be in the olys because of the variety of styles, in fighting and the like.
Can you imagine if the Olys had a ring run by a WUKO judge, a ISKF Judge, a JKA Judge, a ITKF Judge and a KWF ring ref? I am sure the first round of the first fight might take a week itself!
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Post by andyupton on Jul 30, 2012 18:30:42 GMT
...and what kind of Kata would you get ?
The Luca Valdesi / Michel Milom type of rubbish or the abomination that is "Musical Kata" (for want of a better phrase ??
No. Leave Karate OUT of the Olympics !
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Post by kensei on Jul 30, 2012 18:51:28 GMT
...and what kind of Kata would you get ? The Luca Valdesi / Michel Milom type of rubbish or the abomination that is "Musical Kata" (for want of a better phrase ?? No. Leave Karate OUT of the Olympics ! As good as it could be for us...it could also be horrible. |
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jul 30, 2012 19:11:52 GMT
The ITKF tried for many years to get IOC recognition but so far have been unsuccessful.
I think because they are an "all styles" organisation they would be recognised as an "all sizes fit" organistaion.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by dek1 on Jul 30, 2012 19:54:33 GMT
As a newbie I thinkbefore we consider if it will be good or bad its right to seperate sports Karate from dojo training way of life Karate (if you understand what I mean). I train in a dojo where we do both sports Karate, train for street use and the very basics and fundementals one step sparring, speed power ect. I prefer leaving the sports stuff to the young team but I do enjoy the sparring side of it all. Would it be a bad thing to embrace it and see the benifits it has brought Judo. Today they were saying over 650,000 people practice Judo in france and its down to funding and support it gets imagine what it could do for Karate. Or will I just get my coat and leave.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jul 30, 2012 20:27:35 GMT
Hello Derek
I remember practising Judo in the early 1960's when it was considered to be a Martial Art. It is now considered to be a sport.
At least Karate has retained the martial aspect of it's origins but can if required wear two hats so to speak.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by nathanso on Jul 30, 2012 23:39:30 GMT
The ITKF tried for many years to get IOC recognition but so far have been unsuccessful. I think because they are an "all styles" organisation they would be recognised as an "all sizes fit" organistaion. I know that Nishiyama tried to argue that ITKF could be in the Olympics as a "budo karate" competition and that the WKF could be in as "sports karate", a distinction that I am sure is lost on anyone without a knack for Talmudic distinctions. I remember that there was a karate tournie in 1968 which was supposed to be tied in to the Olympics in Mexico city that year that was supposed to help get karate in. That was 44 years ago. I suspect that 44 years from now, those of you still around will still be waiting. |
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Post by elmar on Jul 31, 2012 0:35:37 GMT
Nevertheless, Karate could do the same, but it would require impact measurement on the striking surfaces (e.g. hands, feet, elbows, and knees) combined with separable identified contact targets (so a face hit counts more than a hit to the thigh), and a scoring system that included impact energy, target struck and number of hits in order to win (sum weighted sum, iow). Or maybe just better training for some judges. I am not an advicate for full contact Karate, seen to many punch drunk Thai fighters to change my mind on that one...but giving a point for tip tap stuff when a crushing blow followed is kind of silly. That is the whole point about a computerized weighted sum system - the tippy-tappy would get, say one point per tip (too few ergs on target), but the bruiser would get twenty per bash (psi IOW). Whoever gets to 30 first, wins. |
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Post by malk103 on Aug 1, 2012 8:46:41 GMT
I've watched some Judo and don't think it left that much of an impression on me, there were some good throws but most of the time the "throwee" just had to land on their front until the ref moved them on.
There were a couple of good arm locks and a few won because the opponent wasn't agressive enough.
My fear with Karate being excluded is that there will be a huge recruitment in the UK into Judo and TKD where a lot of our clubs fade away. A lot of students join because of the thought of getting a black belt or because it's "cool". The drive to get people into sports after the Ollies may push them into the "cool" ones as seen on the telly.
I still think there is a place for Kumite and Kata - maybe extend the Kata to performing Bunkai afterwards, teams could apply their own applications to impress the judges, this would also help people visualise the reason behind these "funny dance routines".
Getting all of the Orgs to agree would be the biggest stumbling block, bought time they realised that one of the reasons to belonging to an org is that they should be out their representing us and making things like this happen.
I imagine that hundreds would be interested in a chance of standing on the podium, personally I could be famous for coming last just like Eddie the Eagle......
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Post by kensei on Aug 1, 2012 12:03:05 GMT
the issues are not scoring or the battle with Judo and TKD. Karate was organized and bigger than TKD prior to the advent of the Oly events for TKD.
Think on hit, TKD was just starting to spread around the world when Karate was HUGE. Chuck Norris, while being a Korean stylist, was huge and the fact is every city had handfulls of Karate clubs....but we never made it to the Oly's why?....to many styles and orgs that just dont get along.
We shot ourselves in the foot from the day the masters started using style names to describe what they taught. The minute someoe said " I teach chito Ryu" and some else said "well mine is Shorei ryu" we were doomed!
the IOC does not want complicated, they want simple with simple rules, sometimes way to simple! Karate will never make it into the olympics (to some peoples relief) because we are not one style with one or two organizations. Thats all, thats it and thats all it ever will be.
If we were all one style and we could all agree on rules we would have been in by now, but ever time a group pattitions the IOC another group pops up and says "what about us" and the IOC says get your crap together and walks away. I have seen this four or five times now and its always the same.
Never gonna happen simply because of the different styles, even if we did have a WUKO style group that was all styles that came along...we got 12 different groups countering them.
We are our worst enemies in this case, and personally I think staying out of the fight is best. Just do the Pan ams and thank god no group is standing up to make a tiff over them.!
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Post by Rob S on Aug 1, 2012 12:05:02 GMT
My fear with Karate being excluded is that there will be a huge recruitment in the UK into Judo and TKD where a lot of our clubs fade away. A lot of students join because of the thought of getting a black belt or because it's "cool". The drive to get people into sports after the Ollies may push them into the "cool" ones as seen on the telly. Does this not indicate that people are looking at karate as a sport rather than a 'martial art'? If karate is a "Budo' then it would be very hard to turn it into an Olympic "sport'. I still think there is a place for Kumite and Kata - maybe extend the Kata to performing Bunkai afterwards, teams could apply their own applications to impress the judges, this would also help people visualise the reason behind these "funny dance routines". This already exists in World Karate Fed|Japan Karate Fed. SO it is tried and tested at 'true' World Level. Sorry to say but Ippon SHobu as in JKA/SKI/KWF/JKS etc. is not true 'world level other than world level within their association. Take KWF championships, they are very small. JSKA Worlds at Manchester had 4 or 5 people in some divisions. Not a representation of Shotokan. JKA have larger world events and are more deserving of the 'world title'. We in Shotokan do not follow the rules of World Karate Fed, and as a result we would struggle to do well in the Olympics even if karate was included. Most Shotokan groups in the UK do not belong to the Sport England (therefore IOC) recognised groups. We stay out of them because we are Shotokan and 'hard core' and don't like their rules. It is my belief that Shotokan will never be able to properly assimilate itself into WKF/JKF unless people change this attitude. Kagawa sensei is/was the JKF coach. He has managed to do it with his students - proof that we can! But we would all have to either leave our groups or get our groups to join that IOC recognised association (In England I think it is the English Karate Federation. We would then have to be the best at competing under those 'new rules' (for many old timers here) and get the existing guard to let us in. Getting all of the Orgs to agree would be the biggest stumbling block, bought time they realised that one of the reasons to belonging to an org is that they should be out their representing us and making things like this happen. Why do the associations need to agree? They just need to go into the existing IOC recognised association and assimilate the rules. We can not try to change the existing rules, but go with them. Then we have a chance. So why do we not do this? Ego? Power? Not letting go of what we believe in. etc etc. This is funny to me, as we all like to think JKA's karate is the 'hard core Shotokan'. We follow what we perceive as correct Shotokan, based on the old JKA/IAKF regime. In the UK the KUGB of old was the vanguard with fantastic fighters. Japan had Kanazawa, Enoeda, Shirai, Tanaka, Yahara, Kagawa and so many others. We all heralded and applauded these fighters. We cannot name the WUKO fighters of the day like Watanabe of Brazil (1972), or Murakami and Hanaguchi of Japan. Otti Roethoff of Holland? I would hesitate tha we do not not, but the name Eugene Codrington and Billy Higgins who were Brits in those events are of course known to us, but that is due to the fact that they were British. I imagine that hundreds would be interested in a chance of standing on the podium, personally I could be famous for coming last just like Eddie the Eagle...... I guess we all dream of being in the Olympics. but for Shotokan karate-ka maybe it should remain just that a dream. |
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Post by Rob S on Aug 1, 2012 19:01:27 GMT
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 2, 2012 6:49:30 GMT
let me play at this a bit here...being a majority Shotokan group we made a very bad mistake when it comes to "what if"'ing the oly thing. First off I am not going to debate if it would be good or not..I see it as a huge marketing idea to get more people in the door and the educate them on real Karate training....but for me its a even more important question that has to be asked...and back to my first statement.. If Karate was to be a Olympic event...which Karate would we be seeing? Kyokushin probably has the best chance with their knock down battles, more spicy than TKD but I have never seen nice Kata from a Kyokushin fighter before, no offence...they just excell at different areas. you have the same problem with Kyokushin:which organisation would compete in the Olympics IKO1,IKO2,Kyokushin Union,...?..after Sosai Oyama's death you have many different organisations(like in other karate styles)... and kata doesn't have to look nice James  the problem is that most spectators at the Olympics want to see flying ninja's (like Valdesi,Millon,...)but to me that's not karate. Most shotokan kumite(without sounding disrespectfull to shotokan) you'll see nowadays is already suffering from unrealistic and( not attractive to the outsider)kumite....people dropping like a sack of flower when they aren't even touched...and most of the time scoring with a gyaku tsuki or scoring read:tapping lightly turning away as fast as they can and celebrating as if they're some kind of football player that scored a goal)..like Nathanso says:there's has been talked about this for many decades about this..it didn't happen then and it won't(and I hope so)happen now..... |
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Post by Rob S on Aug 2, 2012 7:26:22 GMT
I hate to say it but almost everything about the mainline Japanese styles has become very sportified. I was at a World event in Japan in Sept 2011. It was a great tournament, but it really opened my eyes to the weaknesses of modern day Shotokan compared to the other styles.
All the kata was fantastic to watch, but non of it had the reality of the kata of the original Okinawan origins (e.g. Kyudokan of Higa sensei).
It was too often the exhale loudly on almost all the techniques, akin to puppy barking sometimes. The Goju impressed me as the only 'real' kata.
The kumite was a high level for the WKF style 3 points for a head kick/take down follow up, two for a kick and one for a punch. There were no injuries. This kumite may impress the audience, but it is very akin to TKD. Not for me I am afraid. I still like Ippon Shobu, the way it was in the 1970's.
Shotokan has become a poor cousin in World Events (outside of Shotokan ony competitions), and if it wasn't for the likes of Valdesi I think we would become bottom of the podium. The event I visited in Tokyo was notable in that most of the winners were Shito and Goju and I suspect Ryuei- Ryu (although I do not now enough about it to really recognise it). I am including kumite in this comment!
Shotokan is not the all singing all dancing style we like to laud it as, in the open arena of multi style karate.
Shotokan should not go to the Olympics, or it will have to change beyond recognition.
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Post by tomobrien on Aug 3, 2012 1:51:17 GMT
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Post by Rob S on Aug 3, 2012 6:20:44 GMT
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Post by malk103 on Aug 3, 2012 9:36:20 GMT
She beat Gemma Gibbons who was doing so well - she won one of the previous matches in the last second!
Well done to all of them, a lot of the GB team got knocked out in the early matches which has caused a bit of a stir amongst the management.
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Post by kensei on Aug 3, 2012 12:22:27 GMT
you have the same problem with Kyokushin:which organisation would compete in the Olympics IKO1,IKO2,Kyokushin Union,...?..after Sosai Oyama's death you have many different organisations(like in other karate styles)... You can see this in all the different styls of Karate and its what keeps us out...now not only does the IOC have to work with a multitude of different styles with instructors that often dont get along...but now each styles has a multitude of different org's that often dont get along...its not a hatfild v McCoy thing anymore its a lont worse than that! Even "all styles" groups tend to not get along with other all styles groups...so what now? and kata doesn't have to look nice James the problem is that most spectators at the Olympics want to see flying ninja's (like Valdesi,Millon,...)but to me that's not karate. Their is a marked difference between good Kata and bad...and Valdesi's musical interlude dance recitals. By Good Kata I am meaning solid basics and fundamentals, not flashy crap that looks like a moth frying while taking PCP! The Kyokushin guys I have trained with bairly do Kata at all, and the online videos of the "best Kyokushin Kata masters" pale in comapirison to even Kanazawas tapes...and he was never one I would point to as perfect Kata! Point being is that if you are going to have a Kata division you want Kata that is both aesthetically good and has sound fundamentals.....While I am limited to internet and the local guys, I have yet to see that in Kyokushin guys. Goju yes, Shito...not in my area but on line yes, Kyokushin...not so much. Most shotokan kumite(without sounding disrespectfull to shotokan) you'll see nowadays is already suffering from unrealistic and( not attractive to the outsider)kumite....people dropping like a sack of flower when they aren't even touched... No one is perfect here in this fight, Kyokushin guys pound the piss out of each other, and that is fantastic if your only target is the body. The hardest punch I ever took to the body was a Kyokushin guy I was tossing out of a bar....that was seconds before I punched him in the face and choked him out to drag him out the door. He hit so friggin hard I could not breath with out pain for days...but in the four punches he threw not one was to my unguarded face...which was because he sucker punched me...in the chest...? when you train to only punch the face, and you are wearing pants that simply wont let you try and throw a kick to the head,the only techniques they train to hit the head...you limit your ability and it cost him. We all have our soft spots in Kumite and the crap I see in the open tournaments and even some of the major ones is all show boating and sport Karate, which is what draws crowds and what the IOC looks for to begin with...again another argument against the inclusion of Karate into the Oly's! and most of the time scoring with a gyaku tsuki or scoring read:tapping lightly turning away as fast as they can and celebrating as if they're some kind of football player that scored a goal)..like Nathanso says:there's has been talked about this for many decades about this..it didn't happen then and it won't(and I hope so)happen now..... I have been around Karate now for near three and a half decades, and I saw the writing on the wall when Tanaka won against a larger fellow by tapping his gut with a perfect front leg round kick that should have been the lead into a kill....and was called a full point and gave him the win. the problem is creating a systme that is both appealing to the public, realistic and safe for the competitors. And one that crosses the style boundries to make it user friendly for all those competing. Then you need to create national bodies to find fighters that will fight under these rules in each country that wants to participate and then spread those rules to different styles orgs....its just a huge undertaking that I dont see the next 20 years having Karate as a IOC sport in the Oly's. Having said all that I think that the holes in every styles game are also followed up with great strong points as well. It seems like I am down on Kyokushin because of what I put about my exchanges with them...I am not, they train like the devil and have great spirit, hit hard and are a great reprosentative of the old ways being done with an evolved system of training, true athletes and all the other styles have strong points as well...its more of a universal "we cant get our crap together" kind of a thing and really...they have TKD why another asian striking style in the Oly's...is it needed? |
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Post by tomobrien on Aug 6, 2012 2:23:26 GMT
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Aug 6, 2012 9:05:59 GMT
Well done to Kayla on her Judo Gold Medal.
It is amazing what can be achieved in the face of adversity, she summed her achievement up by feeling comfortable. Sadly so many victims of abuse cannot make that transition. When will people realise the consequences of their actions and the misery that follows in so many cases. So many lives destroyed.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by malk103 on Aug 8, 2012 12:58:31 GMT
TKD time......
Seemed all about kicking to the head, if they could employ leg sweeps then most of the attacks would have ended on their backsides.
I also noticed that as they got close they just "hugged" so the ref would "reset" them?
Obviously not a lot of grappling goes on in TKD - or not the sporty version.
I also noticed there was a lack of blocking?
Judo was slightly more entertaining but they will probably both lift in popularity/funding after this.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 8, 2012 18:29:09 GMT
TKD..... I dont get it..apparently they score punches so low that it is not deemed worth punching, therefore a guard is superfluous. Watched some this afternoon yawn....
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the problem is that most spectators at the Olympics want to see flying ninja's (like Valdesi,Millon,...)but to me that's not karate.