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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 5, 2012 11:10:53 GMT
Sorry just a "get it off my chest" post  Is it just me or is a lot of this perfection of character nonsense just a load of old tosh! We had a course this weekend and knowing we were worried about numbers I spoke to our chief instructor about inviting people I knew from outside to try and bolster things a bit, he was happy enough with this and so I asked around and invited people along. We had a very senior karate-ka of my acquaintance come along to train as a guest (far higher ranked than anybody in our line up) and when it came to time to line up he was waiting to see where he should stand as a guest and a number of our top black belts just blanked him as if he wasn't there and left him standing at the back of the room (I have to say I'd already had a quick word explaining who and what he was before the line up to see where they wanted him and they pretty much ignored me as well, and I've been training with these guys for 15 years) so I had to step in and invite him to train next to me. We had a good session and I don't think it bothered him greatly (if it did he had the good grace to keep it to himself) but to me it just seems exceptionally bad manners, irrespective of what the etiquette my be in these situations just to ignore the guy and leave him standing there shows (in my mind at least) a p*ss poor attitude, particularly when you consisder he was there, by invitaion, to do US a favour. Like I say, this is just a chance for me to moan but I needed to do it somewhere (and I suspect this won't be the last they've heard of it either  ) |
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Post by malk103 on Aug 5, 2012 12:58:48 GMT
Bad manners!
It was possibly due to them not knowing what should happen with regards to the etiquette but rather than being open about it they chose to just face the front and ignore, hoping someone else would pick up the problem.
Even if someone had asked openly where should he go and then asked them if they were okay with that, it would have been better than just ignoring them.
Our club has twice (since i've been Shodan) had Black belts turn up asking to train with us, both after a break in training, both times we have invited them to the top end of the line and they were both pleased to slot inbetween us and the Brown belts.
One was expecting to start at the other end until she got back up to speed.
We don't have to follow the Japanese etiquette to the full but we should still have basic common courtesy.
We should all be openly encouraged to train in other Dojo's to expand our knowledge. There seems to be plenty of bad manners within Karate - going by what I see written online - just hope that I never have to train with any of them. So far my experiences have all been good.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Aug 5, 2012 13:33:52 GMT
Hi Bob
A number of issues have arisen from your post.
The time, place and culture that existed when the Dojo Kun materalised was a far cry from today's society. It originally dates back to the Chinese Dojo Kun during the era of Bodhidharma. The Okinawan Karate Master Sakugawa Shungo took the original as a model and it evolved into what we have today.
One of the problems that Karate (and life in general) has suffered for many many years is that essentially members of "Joe Public" are involved within it. As we all are painfully aware some members of "Joe Public" are atypical of the type of person that should be attracted to Karate. I am sure that most other diciplines in life suffer a similar fate. Personally I would expect those who decide to practice Karate to at least have some qualities and redeeming features that would initially be there in the first place and last them through karate and life in general.
Since it did not bother him, did it bother you? Did it give you the character to ask questions or walk away from it like him?
Has it let you see your colleagues in a different light? Something quite insignificant/significant can alter our perspective of people that we thought we knew.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 5, 2012 14:13:32 GMT
Hi Allan, I guess I'm just doing what I've accused other of in the past, being offended on somebody else's behalf when they are quite capable of sticking up for themselves if it bothered them enough to do so,  and possibly making a mountain out of a molehill but yes, it did bother me, particularly when I look at how welcome I've always been made in other peoples dojos (particularly his) Just a little dissapointed with people I thought I knew, still, we live and learn. (although I've not managed to be the phrase "big fish, small pond" out of my head today  ) There were enough others there who came up and shook his hand after training and engaged him in conversation that we didn't really disgrace ourselves too much, just a couple of people I expected better of. I'll get over it  |
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Post by kensei on Aug 6, 2012 14:38:17 GMT
Not all members of a group will react the same to a visitor. Not all clubs or organizations are as open as yours is. We invite people or have an open door policy because my instructor feels that the true nature of Karate is in sharing.
Some people may have a past with this person or may have feelings about them you dont know about. as long as the over all feel of the event was possitive and the invited guest feels the same way that is all that matters. If a few seniors have their nose out of joint it is more their issue than yours. and if they mention it you can always say that he was invited and ask why they are offended.
Depending on the answer, well you get to see their charactor as much as they get to explain why they acted that way! You did nothing wrong and the fact that you feel embarassed or upset on behalf of the insturctor who was invited shows your charactor is good and you are a good reprosentative of Karate.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 7, 2012 23:19:48 GMT
Bob,
My take on this is that it is a major failing on the part of your group seniors to:
1. Have advised you all for years about the correct attitude and protocols for seniors,
2. A major failure to step in on the day and correct it and:
A Major failure for everyone to have not been informed he was a 'Guest Doing you all a Favour, Whom He was and what Rank etc and thereafter ensuring that he was afforded all due courtesies etc.
Bob, Once again I must say - why do you stay - there is loyalty and there is Non Reciprocated Loyalty and failure to provide members with what they require and need to develop etc.
I know, that for a few years you have, admirably been on a Journey of discovery to address matters that concerned you and troubled you.
Quite recently you attended a course where I was Guest INstructor. You, in essence where, like this chap, there to help the club and do them and I a favour.
Think how they treated you as such a guest!
It was - I hope - what you woulda wished for for this Guy
SO it can be done with well educated and informed Karateka who have - for many years - welcomed Guests!
Go Look through all your notes etc from the past few years and I would bet a lot of money you have learnt more outside than within this group, have been treated and valued more outside than within and also have had more fun and made new friends.
Food for thought eh?
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)
and possibly making a mountain out of a molehill but yes, it did bother me, particularly when I look at how welcome I've always been made in other peoples dojos (particularly his)
) There were enough others there who came up and shook his hand after training and engaged him in conversation that we didn't really disgrace ourselves too much, just a couple of people I expected better of.
