|
|
Post by genkaimade on Sept 13, 2012 10:42:34 GMT
Hi everyone,
I have a question for you all (I'll give you the context first).
Effectively, in a few weeks time, I will be leaving home for university. My gi will of course be coming with me, and I will of course be joining the university club. By pure coincidence however, there happens to be a history of...discontent, between my current dojo and the head instructor of the university club ("karate politics" being the main cause). As a result, I am a little reluctant to ask my instructors the question that I am asking you all (I know that it brings back bad memories for them), the question very simply being:
What etiquette should be followed when changing dojo?
Thanks,
Alex
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 13, 2012 12:38:30 GMT
Hey Alex,
I would of course chat with your current instructor about the situation and make it clear that the move is ONLY to continue training and because that is the only close Dojo for you.
I am assuming that you are moving into a Uni and not just swapping clubs cuz you are going to school now! When I was in University I continued to train at my instructors school because A) the Shotokan club at the University I was attending was JUNK and B) I lived at home while attending school.
The thing is even if the instructor has bad blood with the other guy and its ONLY because of politics then it should be fine. Let him know you will be coming back as soon as school is out and thats all it is. If its not okay then he should be giving you a damn good reason other than politics and perhaps a close club to train at while you are away.
Lets face it some instructors are Crap and they hurt people more than help them so this may be your instructors way of protecting you as well. But my suggestion is still to ask for a quick informal meet and tell him about your plans and ask for his input. Let him know you value his thoughts first however as you dont want to say "this is what I am doing....what do you have to say" kind of thing. put it this way...."I have an issue and this is my plan so far, what are your thoughts and do you have any suggestinos for me....I will be coming back after school and on breaks and really want to know what your thoughts are".
should be cool after that!
|
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Sept 13, 2012 15:15:15 GMT
Yeah, talk with you instructor. If they are open and honest, it should be a none issue. If they are stubborn and closed minded then moving on should not be a problem. Either way, you are going to train at the new place, no matter who likes it or not. Just hope your hometown instructor is nice about it. I guess where things get messy is when the issue of gradings come up. Is there much of a stylistic difference? If so, grade with the brand you like best.
If you train long enough, you will change insturctors a few times. Remember you train for you, loyalty and respect are just words used by karate cults. Respect and understanding are practiced by enlightened people.
PS: Sometimes, no matter what you choose, people are going to feel betrayed. That is their problem. This is karate, not an army. We are not in a state of war, and there can be no such thing a treason.
Maybe a bit too strong. Sorry. Just do what you feel makes you the happiest and never look back.
|
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Sept 14, 2012 10:24:22 GMT
I think the traditional approach is:
Wear a gold lamay Gi, don a rising sun headband and challenge all the senior students to a duel.
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 14, 2012 12:41:53 GMT
I think the traditional approach is: Wear a gold lamay Gi, don a rising sun headband and challenge all the senior students to a duel. IN Canada its wear a Gi made of the US flag, talk with a souther twang and say Y'all alot when challenging the seniors...Gets a good amount of spirit up in the Dojo  |
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Sept 15, 2012 19:41:29 GMT
Back to the original question.....  ;D We have had a few Black Belts return to training and none of them waltz in saying "I am..." or "I'm the best", they simply introduced themselves and slotted in on the leftest part of their coloured belt. We once had a situation where a 2nd Dan was next to the Brown belts and 2 1st Dans were at the end, eventually when we realised the rank mistake and they had more than pronion themselves we simply swapped places one night. I would also go with the advice above about talking with your Sensei and asking their advice, good advice would be to keep training and train with others, maybe you can judge the other instructor yourself rather than go on somebody else's view. At the end of the day its all about the training and keeping the water hot... |
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Sept 15, 2012 20:22:07 GMT
Alex, I think the answer is that there is no "answer", it'll change from group to group, club to club. I'd guess that the issue in this circumstance isn't so much about changing clubs as the history between these two instructors. From your point of view, I would talk to your current instructor about the plan (and reason for the change) at least in that case you should then be able to return should you wish to, their problems are not yours and if you've been open an honest in your dealings that should be sufficient, (and if it isn't then you probably wouldn't want to go back anyway). For your new club, I would tend to only volunteer the information they ask for rather than making an issue of it, if they want to know where and who you trained with before then tell them (again, if this is an issue then you're probably in the wrong place), if not then it's not an issue. In a university club they'll be used to students coming in from elsewhere and moving on again. I had a student join us over the school holidays as his usual club was closed. He took the decision to put on a white belt and join the end of the line, after the first couple of minutes I said that it obviously wasn't his usual belt so would he put on his real belt and take his place in the line. Our policy has always been that anybody joining joins at the level they have already achieved but he hadn't made any assumptions and waited for the invitation, everbody was happy (TBH if he hadn't been 5 minutes late for the start of class he could have just asked in the first place  I know (or should say have heard of) other clubs who would expect you, as a matter of course, to put on a white belt and start again. I wouldn't make a fuss about it but probably wouldn't go back, not because I'm above it but I just couldn't be bothered (happy enough to line up at the bottom of the blackbelts as a guest anywhere though and wouldn't expect to do more) |
|
|
|
Post by garage on Sept 16, 2012 10:40:57 GMT
Hi Alex
Having run a university club and instructed in a few many years ago. The university union usually gives a grant to subsidise the club which makes it a very cheap place to train. There is normally a big intake after freshers fair.
There is normally a lot of people that turn up from different clubs and styles and associations some of them really big up what they have done and come up short and others say nothing. As being at university is temp before they go somewhere else and the summer term drop off as exams are taken really means you only really get autumn and spring to get anywhere.
Most associations are really unhelpful in that they will not recognise grades and so as you travel around after you graduate you find you are expected to regrade again and again.
Go a long and train where you can and you will a lot of people that are trying to do the same. There are always club outside the university I used to train in both.
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 16, 2012 13:14:05 GMT
I agree with all these guys, while each situation is going to be different and difficult, the best policy is to chat with your instructor first. If he has a few warnings for you then you get a good intro report on the lad you will be training with.
Politics are ugly and to be frank I would suggest you worry more about the character of the instructors over the political issues. If the Uni guy is a real schmuck then you dont want to train with him regardless because he will make your training "not so much fun!" and in a situation were you are under stress in classes, it might be best to find alternatives....But first chat with your instructor..you might be shocked by his thoughts...maybe he says to train with the guy regardless of politics.
|
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Sept 16, 2012 14:16:48 GMT
...they simply introduced themselves and slotted in on the leftest part of their coloured belt. Then they might be confused in my dojo, since we don't line up at all much less in any sort of order; we just exchange a mutual bow at the start from where ever people happen to be on the floor (the instructor is usually closest to the front wall, and everyone faces that person), and start, arranging the bodies so that they don't collide. Rank is irrelevant during training save in the partnered situations when it usually is "seniors with juniors" to start. |
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Sept 16, 2012 15:33:24 GMT
That's an interesting way of doing it Elmar, i've sometimes wanted to mix up my small classes so you train next to different people and hopefully learn tips from seniors. The main reason we line up in rank order is so that we can do different Kihon combinations. I suppose the most polite thing to do would be to ask where you should stand/train from the Sensei or seniors. Probably the biggest headache is when you change from one org where the belt colour order is slightly different, we've had a yellow belt join us in the past but had only graded twice where our Yellow is the 3rd coloured belt....  ... and where did Blue belts come into it.  |
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Sept 16, 2012 22:32:18 GMT
Kihon combo's? No problem - just let them do the combos assigned their level. They don't need to be among "their own" to do their own combo. Belt colors? I tell them to wear whatever they wore the last place. But if they want to grade with me, then they wear whatever they get, provided it isn't a "downwards" move. Since I use only 3 colors (white, green and brown), most yellow or orange belts won't change color until they test for green. Likewise those who have other weird colors. For me, the kyu level determines the color, rather than the inverse. |
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Sept 17, 2012 5:46:54 GMT
i've sometimes wanted to mix up my small classes so you train next to different people and hopefully learn tips from seniors. I like to occassionly mix lower belts in among the upper belts or visa versa, depending on the composition of the class, to try to get the lower belts to see how fast they are supposed to be moving (and sometimes to show the upper belts they're not as good as they think). |
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Sept 17, 2012 8:05:21 GMT
Thank you for the advice everyone!
Just to clarify, my current instructors already know where it is that I'm going and who I'm going to be training with, and they've already praised the future head instructor's karate to no end and told me to just train with him as his technical karate is excellent (it's just the political history which they don't enjoy). I've been warned that it might be worth me getting another Gi without our club's badge on it, just to avoid anything that could potentially arise with this new instructor, but to be honest, if he really is that bad, I'd rather train with the goju and shotokai clubs etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Sept 17, 2012 8:27:22 GMT
IMO a new person in a dojo is a guest until they are actually integrated. A guest black belt will line up between the kyus and the black belts, regardless of the grade they carry. Some guest may be better at some some things, some may be worse. But they are guests.
Once they are integrated, they should wait a year prior to raising the issue of grading. They will then be able to grade with our technical panel (either in Japan or at a camp), and will either be promoted, ratified, or of course asked to wait longer.
Whilst they are guests, they have no standing in the dojo and therefore should be happy to line up in the guest position.
Once they are members, they will understand the etiquette in use, and it will not have any bearing.
As for the reiho etc. Someone is asked to do the 'commands 'daily. It may be a high grade or a junior. All are expected to be able to 'call'.
Belts. we wear white for 9and 8 kyu, yellow for 7 and 6 kyu, green for 5 and 4 kyu, and brown for 3,2,1 kyu. No stripes through the belts, especially on brown. I never could understand the UK system of making stripes on the belts.
Red belt we also have. One person. Our chief instructor in Japan.
Each to their own however. All groups are different.
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 17, 2012 11:46:02 GMT
Thank you for the advice everyone! Just to clarify, my current instructors already know where it is that I'm going and who I'm going to be training with, and they've already praised the future head instructor's karate to no end and told me to just train with him as his technical karate is excellent (it's just the political history which they don't enjoy). No issues then with the training, thats good. You may want to aproach the new instructor then and tell him your origins and say you are here to train through the Uni year. Keep it business and if he starts to bring up politics in any way let him know that it makes you uncomfortable. Also, let him know your instructors gave him high praise for his ability and teaching skills. Trust me it could go along way in the end. Just let him know gently that you are here for good Training not politics. I've been warned that it might be worth me getting another Gi without our club's badge on it, just to avoid anything that could potentially arise with this new instructor its always a good idea to grab a new one for the school year reguardless, and having a back up to train in at the old club when you visit is not a bad idea as well. Keep it clear of Dojo patches and get a solid use out of it in Uni when you are their. The expense will be worth it when you train and know you have a back up down the road. but to be honest, if he really is that bad, I'd rather train with the goju and shotokai clubs etc. If he is, train with the Shotokai guys, Not that I am putting Goju down, I am not. But the Shotokai guys will be closer to what you are used to. My suggestion now that we know your instructors are okay with this guys teaching is to focus on just training with him and leaving the rest out of it. Talk to the new instructor and tell him that your instructor(s)said he was a good instructor to train with while at university, and that you know about the political issues and you are their just to train and really respect his Karate but have no interest in the politics. He may actually think its a nice perk that a student from a political rival is training with him because that rival respects his Karate. If you get the "vibe" from him that this is not the case...keep the Shotokai guys in the back of your mind as a back up. Smile and leave! Just find a great place to train! and Enjoy school and destressing while training. |
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Sept 17, 2012 12:41:19 GMT
I may be going into advice overload here but..... Personally I would keep my Gi and Club badges and turn up and train with them (after asking of course), maybe pass on your current Instructors praise. We are all supposed to be in the same Karate club called Shotokan so if there are any issues with Politics then let them know they will lose you as a student, the training should be more important but a stress free environment while in between studying should be your first goal. |
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Sept 17, 2012 16:31:52 GMT
Personally I would keep my Gi and Club badges and turn up and train with them (after asking of course) Why the need to keep badges on a gi, when it is not the badge of the club you are now going to train in. Surely respect for the new dojo would suggest that your gi should remain badge free? If you are purely a visitor, fine, wear your club badge; but if you are now a 'member' of that club - even if only for a year, then surely respect the dojo enough. |
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Sept 18, 2012 6:00:26 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Sept 18, 2012 8:17:28 GMT
I left my old association a few years back. I no longer wear their gi badge or their belt. I wear the belt given to me by my childhood sensei, which just shows a gift to me from him.
Belts and badges are very much association bound. I don't think we need to wear them like 'badges of honour' when outside our own environment.
I know things have been discussed before, but it brings back the whole 'why do people wear JKA on their belts or gi, when they are not or have never been?'
I guess it is down to personal choice.
|
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Sept 19, 2012 17:01:58 GMT
My belt has "dento karatedo" written on it and my name on the other side of it. I figure I will always be doing traditional karate no matter where I am. But, yeah, going into a coke a cola factory with Pepsi written all over your shirt is not very polite. Even if you ask nicely, and they are nice enough to say yes, you are being a bit "in their face" sort of speaking.
However, I truly do not mind as long as you do not contradict what I teach to my students. But, on the otherside, when you are not included into special events, or are treated like an outsider, do not get pissed off.
I would like to ask, when changing dojo, should start doing the techniques their way, even though you have come to believe in a different way of doing things? This is one thing, I could not do. I train at a JKA dojo, but my technique is different on some fundamental levels. I am happy that the dojo I am with now accepts me, but I could not imagine training at another shotokan dojo and having to put up with being pressured to change up. What do you guys think about changing dojo on a technically level?
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 19, 2012 19:30:46 GMT
I would like to ask, when changing dojo, should start doing the techniques their way, even though you have come to believe in a different way of doing things? This is one thing, I could not do. I train at a JKA dojo, but my technique is different on some fundamental levels. I am happy that the dojo I am with now accepts me, but I could not imagine training at another shotokan dojo and having to put up with being pressured to change up. What do you guys think about changing dojo on a technically level? I think it depends on your level and how much you have invested in your style. If you are a purple belt or even a brown belt I dont see an issue with the new Dojo saying "no this way"...as long as its just another version. But if you are a black belt and have ingrained it in yourself then its your way and should be left alone. J |
|
;D 
... and where did Blue belts come into it. 