Nice Andre Bertel Interview

[fleur]

[tomobrien]

Great vid!

Thanks,
Tom

[Allan Shepherd]

Hello Fleur

Great interview and video footage with Sensei Asai and Andre Bertel, had the opportunity some years ago when he was JKS to correspond with him in New Zealand which culminated in a invitation to visit which unfortunately I could not afford. Sensei Asai and ultimately Andre's karate are almost like the Aikido of Steven Seagal with it's application. So relaxed, sharp and effective.

I have via various instructors (some JKS, some not) over the years followed the basis for the karate demonstrated which covered Muchiken-Snap, Koshi no Kaiten-Hip Rotation, Tai no Shinshuku-Contraction/Expansion but also the use of Shoulder Extension. This shoulder extension was explained by demonstrating the throwing of a basketball/football with both hands allowing the shoulders full extension with kime through the target. The technique was not "arrested" at the normal ending for example as in sundome but allowed to travel a further 3 or 4 inches depending on flexibility of the shoulder without turning the shoulders/hips into target to make distance.

Best Regards
Allan

[fujicolt]

An interesting little vid but for a little balance here and to give newer OSS members a heads up Andre Bertel (after blowing a valve when a regular member here upset him - not here, elsewhere ) made a rather vitriolic attack upon ALL whom post here!

It appears he is of the opinion that those who post here at OSS are shall we say 'Fools and idiots whom don't practice or know Karate'.

Unfortunately the OSS member concerned wouldn't give me permission to post Mr Bertels comments in full and duely respond.

Which is a shame as I would have loved to have the opportunity to publicly question the basis of Andre's rather unpleasant comments, and his basis for such claims etc but I, of course have upheld the said OSS members request not to post Andre's comments. I am hoping Andre visits the UK because I would dearly love to go along and have a word with him about it all

I am informed he has made similar rather unpleasant written attacks on others when his 'word' or claims re: the true extent of his actual interaction with Asai Sensei are questioned - such a shame really

Turning to the technical matters: Asai Sensei was indeed a very innovative and broad thinking Instructor but if you have been around long enough you will find that the basis for many of his 'variations' can also be found within the teaching of Kanazawa Sensei, Kase Sensei, Ochi Sensei and Shirai Sensei.

However, Asai Sensei's 'stuff' was brilliant in my opinion and well worth investigating directly. I believe there are various Vids and books that can be hunted down.

[malk103]

A good video, I have seen some of his others, he is very fast and sharp and I believe he truely can apply Karate really well in practical situations.
I didn't like his last comment though about us wasting our time unless learning from a really good instructor, not all of us are blessed with being able to train at length with top names. If we are learning the best we can from the best in our areas then surely it's not a waste of time?

[elmar]

Some training is ALWAYS better than no training, imho.

[Bob Davis]

There's truth in the idea of maximising you opportunities to train with good people, that, however, isn't always the same as training with "big name" or famous people. Just keep an open mind and take the opportunities when they arise.

[fujicolt]

May 23, 2012 21:08:18 GMT elmar said:

Some training is ALWAYS better than no training, imho.

Whilst i think i get the gyst of your comment Elmar I am sorry but i would have to disagree.

May I please be allowed to explain by way of analogy:

I have been extremely fortunate to, many years ago, go along and train for my pilots licence and thereafter train up to Aerobatic Level Flying capabilities.

Over time I came to understand that Karate and Flying an Aeroplane had many similarities - not least being that IF you got it wrong you could/would die!

Therefore, Flying instruction is very highly regulated but even so you get Good and very good and absolutely brilliant Instructors - you simply do not get poor or bad ones as they are quickly weeded out for obvious reasons - if not taught at least to a capable standard peole would die, LOTS OF THEM!.

Sadly though with Karate you get Bad/Poor/Kind of OK/Good/Very good?Excellent Instructors BUT people fail to realise that IF incorrectly taught peole could get very seriously injured or even die in a real life violent situation (from overconfidence getting them hurt if nothing else).

Therefore, I would say for example - if the only club you can train at is a GKR club then do not Study at all!

Better to go buy some good books and training DVD's and self teach - which is to be fair, I accept a form of training but please also be fair yourself and accept that training with a bad Instructor is not a sensible thing to do!

[elmar]

May 23, 2012 22:31:44 GMT @fujicolt said:

May 23, 2012 21:08:18 GMT elmar said:

Some training is ALWAYS better than no training, imho.

Whilst i think i get the gyst of your comment Elmar I am sorry but i would have to disagree.

I get your point - I wasn't thinking of bad instructors; I was thinking of a good instructor with part time students. One can receive bad training from bad teachers, and it is true that the less of that one gets, the easier it is to avoid problems in subsequent times.

[fujicolt]

I got it! thanks! it seems we do agree HAHA!

[th0mas]

Personally I think when they were handing out humility and tact Andrie was elsewhere blowing his own trumpet.
...There is a bit too much "my style is better than your style" for my tastes.

[fujicolt]

Sadly Tom I would have to agree with you but some claim that they don't think or act this way - and

wonderfully, if you dig deep enough, you will find that there are many of what I shall describe as 'The general everyday Karateka population' whom are genuinely interested in meeting and training with other like minded Karateka, learning from each other, creating networks of positive interaction, friendships and fulfilling training experiences IRRELEVANT of thier core Karate Group membership and alliegances.

I think you Tom, would agree that the Friendship Residential Courses have demonstrated this beyond doubt

SO, I have had an idea as to how to expand this positive process and am currently planning to take the Friendship Course Concept 'ON TOUR'

WATCH THIS SPACE ;D

[th0mas]

Oh god!

....I have this image of Spinal tap springing to mind. Lol

[Allan Shepherd]

Hello thOmas

Appreciate that we all have our opinions but wonder if you could expand on "Personally I think when they were handing out humility and tact Andrie was elsewhere blowing his own trumpet" and "...There is a bit too much "my style is better than your style" for my tastes".

Would you train with him IF he visited the UK?

Best Regards
Allan

[kensei]

it is sad that thier still seems to be the "elitist" mentality affecting some.

I tend to read a fair amount of importance into the Dojo Kun and would say that those that can not master the whole "seek perfection of charactor" and "respect others" kind of mentality should steer clear of teaching.

I hate when instructors prance about like a preening peacock and then crap on others to make themselves feel better about their Karate.

Thier are two reasons for Egotist Karate instructors...the first is a low self esteam and self questioning their own skills/worth. this pathology is kind of sad because basically the person feels so little for their actual ability that they put down others and hide behind the very think they should take pride in!

The second is learned or ingrained in them by others, and often it has little to do with the Karate instructor they learned from. Someone in their life made them the preening peacock that they are.

To be frank, I often dont care what the reason is, most of them are adults and I am not here to fix anyone. I just dislike when someone prances about disrespecting others with the kind of attitude that says "look at me" and " I am the only true Karate-ka here".

In Andre's case, I dont know what the issue is with him, I have only witnessed a few issues with his attitude, but generally he has been pleasant with me. I do however get that he thinks his Karate is the "only Karate"....wonder if my thoughts on Asai not teaching JKA Karate would go over well with him or not...would be an interesting conversation however!

[fujicolt]

As, Kensei, a valued member and supporter, even admin on this site - he has made his position on US ALL - very clear but he does it privatel and then may well have been nice to you personally - Interesting eh?

Sad thing is he grew to prominence in a Nation that has a population smaller than MA participants in some other nations and thinks or suggests we don't know what we doing cos he won National Titles and Was on the national team - and trained with some Japanese Instructors - Do the Maths!

[th0mas]

May 28, 2012 16:25:31 GMT Allan Shepherd said:

Hello thOmas

Appreciate that we all have our opinions but wonder if you could expand on "Personally I think when they were handing out humility and tact Andrie was elsewhere blowing his own trumpet" and "...There is a bit too much "my style is better than your style" for my tastes".

Would you train with him IF he visited the UK?

Best Regards
Allan

Hi Allan

To your first point just watch the attached you tube video that is embedded at the top of this thread...

..I also remember Andre when we all used to frequent the Karate Underground forum... He had a tendancy to come across like he had a massive chip on his shoulder and would frequently lose his temper on-line.

So he looks a good karateka, he has a different approach to his training and comes with a level of personal experience with Asai Sensei that very few could claim to have.

Would I train with him? absolutely! Just because someone behaves badly on-line or in interviews does not mean they don't have something worth teaching....

If that were the case there would be a bunch of us on this forum who would miss out on the personal friendship and a vast wealth of karate and personal defence teaching just because a certain hairy individual can't kerb his temper at 0300 in the morning...!

hehehe...I am going to get into so much trouble for that comment..

[Allan Shepherd]

Hello thOmas

Watched the You Tube video for the umpteen time and still cannot figure out from the 15 minutes and 16 seconds duration of same why you think that he lacks humility and tact and he was elsewhere "blowing his own trumpet" and "my style is better than your style" when H + T were being handed out.

If anything in the video he appears to be quite reserved in the verbal format but quite extravert in his training regime. Does this not say a lot about how his karate takes precedence? He constantly refers to Sensei Asai and HIS (Sensei Asai's) karate.

Please explain what I have missed in the You Tube video that makes you think otherwise.

Best Regards
Allan

[Rob S]

Knowing Andre personally, and having seen his karate in the flesh I would like to comment.
He trains, and he trains again! That is his karate.

I think that there is an underlying 'private' war that has become public amongst practitioners who remain with the 'Asai' way.

Compare the video to the recent Shotokan Way interview with Yokota sensei.
Both follow the ' Asai' way.

I think Andre is just trying to aim for clarification amongst those of the 'Asai' way. I believe that he is a member of the IJKA and in communication with the Asai people.

I also know that some senior Japanese sensei were very impressed with him when he visited their dojo in Tokyo - to the degree that there was talk of creation of a new group, with Andre in a fairly prominent position.

So, he has something. And if he was here in the UK I would suggest people give his classes a go.



He was quite reserved and humble on the video. He let his karate do its own talking.

[th0mas]

May 30, 2012 21:57:40 GMT Allan Shepherd said:

Hello thOmas

Watched the You Tube video for the umpteen time and still cannot figure out from the 15 minutes and 16 seconds duration of same why you think that he lacks humility and tact and he was elsewhere ......<snip>....

Please explain what I have missed in the You Tube video that makes you think otherwise.

Best Regards
Allan

Hi Allan

You are correct, having gone back and re-looked at the the attached You tube video, he does not come across in the way he does in other video interviews on youtube. (that'll teach me not to watch it fully)

I understand that you feel the need to defend Andre, especially if you know him personally. However, unfortunately you might have to accept that due to Andre's near-faith-like assertions and very strongly held views, there will be quite a few of us who will subconciously be watching for subtext and cannot help reading between the lines...

Cheers

Tom

[Allan Shepherd]

Hello Tom

This was not about defending Andre Bertel (I am sure he would do that himself if he read the comments you made!!) it was about the integrity of your specific posting on the OSS forum which is about debate!! Read some of his blogs and you will see that the main theme IS his humility especially when speaking of Sensei Asai and the many years that he spent training with him.

Just to clarify I do not know him personally, yes I have been in correspondence with him in the past and I admire him for his karate and his link/lineage with Sensei Asai.

Unfortunately however, I do not have to accept that there will be quite a few of "us" who will be subconciously watching for subtext and cannot help reading between the lines...what lines? Andre Bertel like everyone, has very strongly held views about karate which yes he has expressed BUT NOT as far as I have read been negative or directed at anyone specfic individual.

Personally I think Rob has it right on the button, there is an underlying 'private' war that has become public amongst practitioners who 'remain' with the Asai way. Time for "them" to move on.

Best Regards
Allan

[th0mas]

May 31, 2012 20:47:11 GMT Allan Shepherd said:

Hello Tom

This was not about defending Andre Bertel (I am sure he would do that himself if he read the comments you made!!) it was about the integrity of your specific posting on the OSS forum which is about debate!! Read some of his blogs and you will see that the main theme IS his humility especially when speaking of Sensei Asai and the many years that he spent training with him.

Agreed, nothing wrong with healthy debate

I have read some of Andre's blogs, and have witnessed some of the rather over-the-top comments made by him. Anybody can say or write that they are a thing, does not make it so.... My reading of the way he expresses himself is that he is very proud of his relationship with Asai and (rightly or wrongly, this is not something I am able to judge) feels that he is the Heir apparent to "Asai karate"...whatever that is..

Unfortunately however, I do not have to accept that there will be quite a few of "us" who will be subconsciously watching for subtext and cannot help reading between the lines...what lines? Andre Bertel like everyone, has very strongly held views about karate which yes he has expressed BUT NOT as far as I have read been negative or directed at anyone specfic individual.

Ok, I am beginning to tread on an area that I don't really want to go into as I was not directly involved, although others on this forum were, but as far as I understand Andre can get quite personal, which was one of the contributing factors that prompted my original comments. I find false humility quite hypocritical.

Personally I think Rob has it right on the button, there is an underlying 'private' war that has become public amongst practitioners who 'remain' with the Asai way. Time for "them" to move on.

I absolutely agree, as far as I am concerned it looks like rather unhealthy hero-worship to me. Asai was just a man (all be it a talented one), he developed his karate to suite his own situation (as we all do eventually). He studied under Nakayama which meant he built his own karate on that particular foundation, which by then was already sport focused. Does that make his karate, the true karate? or more effective than someone who spent 20 years working the doors? I doubt it.

Who cares who has the direct lineage for anything, what is important is not past glories but creating the potential for future ones..

Cheers

Tom

(P.s. I apologise if I offend any body with my comments, but it is difficult to talk about an individuals internet behaviour without it getting a bit personal)

[Rob S]

Jun 1, 2012 0:16:47 GMT th0mas said:

Asai was just a man (all be it a talented one), he developed his karate to suite his own situation (as we all do eventually). He studied under Nakayama which meant he built his own karate on that particular foundation, which by then was already sport focused. Does that make his karate, the true karate? or more effective than someone who spent 20 years working the doors? I doubt it.

(P.s. I apologise if I offend any body with my comments, but it is difficult to talk about an individuals internet behaviour without it getting a bit personal)

I don't see your comments as offensive, but I do question one issue. Yes Asai studied mainline Shotokan under the JKA built by Nakayama. But it was also clear that he wished to supplement that 'baseline Shotokan' with other studies. As Nakayama went to the Chinese systems, so did Asai. He just chose to diverge even further with his reliance on 'muchiken' etc. This probably did not sit well with the hardline 'JKA" men, and we saw the results of the all to pubic war that split the JKA to its core.

Asai clearly realised the constraints and restrictions of the 'baseline', as they related to him, and moved his studies forward.

He did not stay 'rooted' to the mainline system, he was fluid and not afraid to move forward - utilising the framework given to him by the Nakayama-ha - supplementing his training with 'outside the box' methodology.

I guess one could say that he did not see 'mainline' Shotokan as the true karate - he just used it as a skeleton, and then put his own meat onto the bones.

The argument as to who should inherit a style or legacy is a mute point, as very very few continue the teachings of their master as they were taught!

We only have to look at Nakayama, Nishiyama, through to Asai and any and all the proponents who graduated from a famous course. The karate has similarities, but all also have their unique references.

Shotokan today is not what Shotokan was in the 60's. Etc. Etc. Why?

Teachers don;t teach solely the way they were taught!

[th0mas]

Hi Rob

Actually I agree with you, from what I understand Asai was an innovator and took his personal karate style down a unique route, as compared with his contemporaries. I believe his approach was probably an improvement on the more rigid classical JKA syle, but looking at youtube etc still seems to rely on long range attacks designed for dojo kumite (caveat: I recognised that I am looking at it from a more self protection perspective which only recently has been more widely adopted in karate terms)

The whole legacy thing is a complete pile of nonscence anyway. Each teacher adapts their karate to suite themselves, and if you copy your sensei exactly you'll end up following there own form rather than focussing on perfecting the function of the technique...

In fact Andre in his blog tells a good story about how Asai noticed on his infrequent visits how rigid and stiff the non-Japanese Karate ka were. So he devised the Junro katas to focus on training in a more relaxed way. However to his horror upon returning to those dojo's they had subconscously changed the emphasis of the katas back to a more rigid staccato form....If you check out Youtube you can see the differences in the way the Junro Shodan etc can be performed by different organisations.

It would appear the message had been lost or fogotten somewhere along the line and those organisations have now ended up doing the absolute opposite for what the kata was orginially intended.

[fujicolt]

Tom

Asai sensei was FAR from alone in worrying that Shotokan Karate had kind of lost its way in terms of being applicable but if i may be so bold - many non Japanese Instructors where ahead of him in this regard.

But we should ALL step back from this DO IT 'Asai's way' or 'Enoeda's Way' or Kase's Way' or 'Nishiyama's Way' etc and realise that we can ALL contribute to making Shotokan Karate better, more realistic and even THE MA to study but we never will until we get rid of this - if a Japanese Instructor doesn't say it should be that way = it has no value!

I have trained with some fantastic Japanese Instructors and gained from it immeasurably - but gained more from Non Japanese Instructor by a very large margin. Think about it Tom - whom have YOU really learnt the most from?

Going back to the Andre situation - if i could post his e-mail to the OSS member you really would see he is rather negative about anyone not agreeing with him - with no justification or information about any of us. I WOULD LOVE to meet him personally and front him with it - I expect he may find many of us out here may just have a bit more experience etc than he claims to have - but heyho he did most of his karate in a nation with a smaller population that the number of people doing MA in the UK

Now some may go - why is steve being so impolite etc - well if you read his E-mail you'd understand and i am simply calling him out to defend his written position and very nasty comments

[th0mas]

Hi Steve

Regarding the Asai stuff, I wasn't really commenting on a japanese vs non-japanese thing, rather the effect of blindly doing what you are told rather than keeping an open enquiring mind, especially as the generations move away from the orginial scource. It can lead to weird martial Arts traditions etc.

In fact most of the "japanese problems" in shotokan were not the fault of individual japanese instructors but the fan-boy hero-worshipping behavour of the students.

I have trained with some fantastic Japanese Instructors and gained from it immeasurably - but gained more from Non Japanese Instructor by a very large margin. Think about it Tom - whom have YOU really learnt the most from?

to answer your question, my view has always been we all should absolutely recognise talent and expertise when we see it and take the bits that help us and add it to our own Karate. So yes I have been significantly more influenced by UK based martial artists.

[Rob S]

Jun 2, 2012 22:55:51 GMT @fujicolt said:

Asai sensei was FAR from alone in worrying that Shotokan Karate had kind of lost its way in terms of being applicable ...

Was Asai looking to make Shotokan more applicable? Or was he trying to augment it, and make it more fluid, speedy, snappy, and therefore more effective from the 'ikken hisatsu' approach the Japanese espouse. As Asai was not an 'application' based teacher, he still taught 3K's I think that the above comment may not be accurate. He taught Kihon as Kihon, Kata as kihon etc. He did not teach partner on partner learning 'drills' that eventually were transposed into Kata practise.

Jun 2, 2012 22:55:51 GMT @fujicolt said:

But we should ALL step back from this DO IT 'Asai's way' or 'Enoeda's Way' or Kase's Way' or 'Nishiyama's Way' etc and realise that we can ALL contribute to making Shotokan Karate better, more realistic and even THE MA to study ...

We can all contribute to Shotokan, BUT we should NOT CHANGE it! If it is Shotokan it needs to remain what it is, not become a relaity based MA. If we start to add or modify to it in such a way that the kihon changes we will be changing the backbone of Shotokan.

Jun 2, 2012 22:55:51 GMT @fujicolt said:

Think about it Tom - whom have YOU really learnt the most from?

It depends on what you call learning the most from. If it is how to correctly do Shotokan karate, as presented by the masters, then your answer may be different from someone who has transposed the style to make it become self defense oriented.

Equally many of the people we copy may not move in the way that the art professes. They modify it to enable themselves to move in a way that is 'easier' often claiming that makes them more effective.

Learning can manifest itself in many ways.

Jun 2, 2012 22:55:51 GMT @fujicolt said:

Going back to the Andre situation ..... I expect he may find many of us out here may just have a bit more experience etc than he claims to have

Of course people have more experience than Andre, he is still a youngster.

The important issue is how well does he perform his Shotokan karate? If he performs it technically better than all these old timers, then he has a right to comment, to challenge, and to offer his opinion.

By challenging him, I would hope this would include side by side practice and maybe even a little engagement. Verbal challenges alone are not worth entertaining. The telling is in the doing, so to speak.

Longitude within a martial art does not necessarily equate to competence. We do not argue about Kawasoe or Kagawa or Osaka and their ability to perform what we see as Shotokan.

Perhaps if we line those teachers up against a bruiser, a body guard, a bouncer etc. their karate falls below the bar as far as MA goes. But as far as Shotokan their karate is above reproach.

Shotokan is an art, not reality based self defense. So from my perspective, I learn most when watching those who move properly. Not what they say, or the style or content of their class, but watching how their bodies work.

I am sure many out there will criticise what I have to say, but ALL my sensei have said the same thing to me. Learn karate with your body, not your brain. Don't talk about it, just make your body learn it properly. Then when you can perform, start to analyse it.

Finally, I would have to say what is the pronionance of those who choose to challenge? What grade do they hold and from where? Does this make a difference? Probably not, but if Andre's grades come from the man himself, then he will have some pronionance to support himself. If they do not then perhaps that is a different story.

Pronionance does become important if we speak about continuing a legacy of a master.

In the old days it was not a dan grade it was the 'menkyo kaiden'. Perhaps we should return to that system. Then we can pronionance our art. And we can honestly say we are keeping the master's teachings alive and 'accurate'. When we change the art, we should change the name.

Shotokan is karate at the end of the day, but the nomenclature helps identify the 'ryu-ha'. In itself this is unnecessary. The movement and the Kata already define that ryu-ha.

[th0mas]

Hi Rob
I think the problem is origins...at what point did the personal style of a relatively unknown Okinawan become Shotokan Karate? This question underlines two important considerations:

• Firstly when did it happen?
  
• and, in some ways a harder question, What are the key elements of the Shotokan Style that make it unique?
  

Depending on the second point (and neatly side-stepping it), the first could be a date:

• during the period in Okinawa prior to Funakoshi going to Japan;
  
• during Funakoshi's later years once the name Shotokan had become associated by his students with what he taught
  
• after Funakoshi's death when Nakayama and his contemporaries distilled and unified the style.
  

So in terms of the pronionance / Style-purity question, and I will use a slightly clumsy set of analogies, you could potentially divide Shotokan practitioners into four categories based on when they might think Shotokan originated:

• Nakayama/JKA
  
• Late Funakoshi
  
• Early Funakoshi
  
• ..Don't care (or I'm a free spirit look at me soar)
  

So if you are the Shotokan Karateka who sits in the first category, you may wish to maintain the purity of the form based around what was essentially set in the late 50's in Japan, with the JKA (probably) being the arbiters/design authority for the style going forward

If you are in the second Category, maybe you are more interested in recognising that the style is essentially a Japanese creation, but that there have been variations in interpretation to Funakoshi's Shotokan. This person would not necessary accept the changes made by Nakayama's generation as being the definitive form and the JKA, although doing a fantastic job of spreading karate world-wide, are not necessary the final authority in technical matters.

The third category of Shotokan practitioner is probably more interested in the Okinawan influences on Shotokan. This group would acknowledge the JKA as one lineage of Shotokan. They are probably less interested in the competition/ sporting aspects of Shotokan and have a greater focus on application(although that does not necessarily mean that people in the other categories are not interested in the practical application of the art). There may be a large number in this group who have studied Shotokan for the majority of their life and are looking for different influences to continue their interest in their chosen Art...

The fourth Category is a complete mixed bag of flakers, newbies, cynics, Loony’s, the uninterested and the curious. In terms of providence, for this group it is relatively unimportant (except as an intellectual pursuit) as they do Shotokan by accident of history and location etc, the reasons are probably varied etc.. I pin my colours to the mast on this category. For me personally I love that I do Karate (it happens to be Shotokan) I enjoy doing the form, but for me it is mainly about the application and I have no problems changing the form to follow the function (although recognising my own limitations and the legacy of skilled martial artists that have developed the art as it stands today.)

Anyway I think the obvious point is that things in life/History very rarely happen like that, it is usually a gradual evolution, a series of events that mark a change which is often only recognised many years after the events take place.
So your personal view about form and providence will greatly depend on how you see what makes Shotokan uniquely Shotokan, which in turn is driven by when you perceive Shotokan becomes a unique style.

[fujicolt]

Some very interesting points there Tom (stopping that habitual consumption of Lemsip and Red Bull seems to have worked! )

May I politely suggest another category:

Those whom have realised that the Shotokan 'Style' of Karate is, and has always been - whilst under the control of Funakoshi Sensei, Nakayama Sensei and all others - an intentionally Ever Evolving Style and thus changes are not only inevitable but actually desirable and intended by the founders as the 'Style' continually searches for the improvement (in both form and function) that such a process inevitably brings.

If this is accepted it can be seen that change is in fact the only constant and therefore an attempt to remain with, or return to, the 'old ways' of 'doing Shotokan' is actually a step off the Shotokan Way rather than an adherence to The Shotokan Way.

I am not suggesting we shouldn't take 'Old ways' with us IF they are valid (and many are) but the whole aim of the founders was for the Shotokan system to positively evolve.

I recomend a reading of Conversations with a Master as it provides abundant evidence - straight from Nakayama Sensei that Funakoshi Sensei quite clearly intended the 'Style' to evolve and improve and Nakayama Sensei merely continued this tradition.
It therefore could be reasonably Argued that Master Kanazawa's 'version' of the Shotokan System is merely a branch of this evolutionary tree and;

as long as the changes are biomechanically, functionally and applicably sound any variations made by Karateka whom have spent decades in studying this subject (be they Japanese, Caucasion, or of any ethnic origin) or not deviations from the Shotokan system but valid further expansions of the Shotokan system.

I make this comments as 'Food for a continuation of thought' about the very valid points you make - not as a distraction from them.

Go have a Red Bull cos I still intend to 'have a word' about the comment from you re; 'A certain Hairy Individual' ;D ;D

[jimlukelkc]

Steve, I refer you to the recent post titled " Jion " and await your apology !